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Started By
Message
re: ATL - Toddler Left in Car
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:08 pm to Golfer
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:08 pm to Golfer
I get the angle you're coming from and won't argue because it's legit
Maybe I'm using a poor comparison, but to me as a father I find it impossible to be so negligent. And he should be charged for his negligence.
Maybe I'm using a poor comparison, but to me as a father I find it impossible to be so negligent. And he should be charged for his negligence.
1
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:08 pm to GeauxTigerTM
No one is saying it's okay. Just that there isn't a person here this couldn't happen to.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:09 pm to tankyank13
quote:
Maybe I'm using a poor comparison, but to me as a father I find it impossible to be so negligent.
And that's understandable. Most people will say "that will never happen to me".
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 9:11 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:12 pm to Golfer
It would never happen to me and that is not a lie.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:14 pm to Golfer
quote:
No one is saying it's okay. Just that there isn't a person here this couldn't happen to.
So, in summation, forgetting a child in a hot car for long enough to kill it happens infrequently - statistically speaking - and to a range of socioeconomic subgroups. All types of people have periods of autopilot.
This all adds up to a hypothesis that this could happen to anyone?
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 9:17 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:29 pm to Golfer
quote:
Just that there isn't a person here this couldn't happen to.
Which is what I have a problem with, because it's simply not true...unless you're going to try and make the case that by owning a vehicle and having a child you are potentially "at risk."
That just is not the case.
There are a shite ton of potential horrific tragedies that can befall children that are wholly outside of our control. Leaving them in our car is just not one of them, and rationalizing it by suggesting all it takes it a change of routine or we were too busy to notice makes me cringe, because none of that remotely resonates with what I lived as a parent of small children. It was not, at all, what happened when I was in that exact situation for years. If that resonates with others, all I can say is that the way I parented my small children was entirely different than the way others are/were doing it.
My other problem with this rush to defend parents who do this is that we can NEVER KNOW their motivation. could it have just been a parent that made a mistake (or from my perspective was far too distracted to be responsible for another human being)? Yeah...sure.
But what if that's simply an excuse that is now given by horrific parents because we know that some many fellow parents seem eager to believe it? As I said in probably my first post, if I were of the mind that I was going to murder my infant/toddler, I can think of no better way than this route. The excuse it made to order, and it's clear that most people seem eager to believe it because they seem to think they are just as prone to making the mistake.
What if every time a person died as a result of someone else's action we had as ready made as excuse for the perpetrator as we do here? In the end, we have a dead child and ONLY the word of the parent. That's chilling to me.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:38 pm to GeauxTigerTM
I don't know if I am the only person who does this, but twice in this thread I have seen posters whose opinion I nearly always respect make comments with which I sincerely disagree, and my first reaction is to assume that they are just ignorant (i.e., not informed on the particular issue) or have not thought the issue through thoroughly.
GeauxTigerTM please consider this post:
The issue in these cases is not that the person was not paying attention. The issue is that no one pays attention all of the time. It's just a fact of humanity. Everyone goes on autopilot at some point, and the more important issue is that no one makes a conscious decision to go on autopilot. That's just the way the human brain works: everyone's brain.
For example, have you ever taken a drive from [Point A] to [Point B] and then thought to yourself: "Wow, I have almost no recollection of actually driving from [Point A] to [Point B]"? I'm not talking about "sleep walking" (or "sleep driving"). I'm talking about making a conscious decision to go somewhere, driving the distance, but having little or no recall of the actual driving that occurred while getting to your destination. Your driving is on autopilot.
When driving on autopilot, you get to your destination, but the higher parts of your brain are not focused on operating the vehicle.
These tragedies are like driving the car on autopilot. The brain is on autopilot when the parent exits the vehicle and goes about their day until the parent realizes too late. It’s not lack of care or concern for the child any more than one lacks care or concern for operating a vehicle that weighs several thousand pounds and capable of killing you and others. It’s just that the brain does not handle all input, functions, and operations in the highest parts of the brain. That, unfortunately, is humanity.
Fatal Distraction
Autopilot
This tragedy doesn't happen often because at least eight circumstances have to come together for this tragedy to happen:
(1) The child has to be an infant or toddler. Older children can unbuckle themselves and get out of the car.
(2) The driver has to be without their spouse but with their young child. Many times, both spouses travel with their child. If the driver is with a spouse, this tragedy doesn't happen.
(3) The child has to be alone in the back seat without any siblings or other children. Many times, a child in a baby seat will travel with an older sibling in the backseat.
(4) The destination of the driver has to be different from the destination of the child. Many times, the parent is going to the same place as the young child: grandma's house, the driver’s friend’s house, fast food, or the store and return home.
(5) The young child has to be silent for a sufficient period of time before the driver exits the car. These tragedies don't happen to a baby that makes an occasional noise. It's more likely to happen to a sleeping baby.
(6) It has to be hot enough for the interior of the car to reach lethal conditions. It doesn't happen at night, and as one of the article states, summer is the season when these deaths occur.
(7) The driver has to be away from the vehicle for a sufficient length of time for the vehicle to reach lethal conditions and for the child to die. Although it doesn't take long, most times, a trip inside the gas station or inside the store won't last long enough for the child to die.
(8) Autopilot engaged. For whatever reason, distraction, lack of sleep, routine tasks, change in routine, the higher parts of the brain are not focused on removing the child from the vehicle.
One more thing. The way our brain works does not require "autopilot" to be engaged the entire time that the child is in the car. Rather, it only requires that autopilot be engaged while exiting the car. Once the driver is out, the brain will not question the location of the child until prodded to do so. That's just the way the brain works.
GeauxTigerTM please consider this post:
The issue in these cases is not that the person was not paying attention. The issue is that no one pays attention all of the time. It's just a fact of humanity. Everyone goes on autopilot at some point, and the more important issue is that no one makes a conscious decision to go on autopilot. That's just the way the human brain works: everyone's brain.
For example, have you ever taken a drive from [Point A] to [Point B] and then thought to yourself: "Wow, I have almost no recollection of actually driving from [Point A] to [Point B]"? I'm not talking about "sleep walking" (or "sleep driving"). I'm talking about making a conscious decision to go somewhere, driving the distance, but having little or no recall of the actual driving that occurred while getting to your destination. Your driving is on autopilot.
When driving on autopilot, you get to your destination, but the higher parts of your brain are not focused on operating the vehicle.
These tragedies are like driving the car on autopilot. The brain is on autopilot when the parent exits the vehicle and goes about their day until the parent realizes too late. It’s not lack of care or concern for the child any more than one lacks care or concern for operating a vehicle that weighs several thousand pounds and capable of killing you and others. It’s just that the brain does not handle all input, functions, and operations in the highest parts of the brain. That, unfortunately, is humanity.
Fatal Distraction
Autopilot
This tragedy doesn't happen often because at least eight circumstances have to come together for this tragedy to happen:
(1) The child has to be an infant or toddler. Older children can unbuckle themselves and get out of the car.
(2) The driver has to be without their spouse but with their young child. Many times, both spouses travel with their child. If the driver is with a spouse, this tragedy doesn't happen.
(3) The child has to be alone in the back seat without any siblings or other children. Many times, a child in a baby seat will travel with an older sibling in the backseat.
(4) The destination of the driver has to be different from the destination of the child. Many times, the parent is going to the same place as the young child: grandma's house, the driver’s friend’s house, fast food, or the store and return home.
(5) The young child has to be silent for a sufficient period of time before the driver exits the car. These tragedies don't happen to a baby that makes an occasional noise. It's more likely to happen to a sleeping baby.
(6) It has to be hot enough for the interior of the car to reach lethal conditions. It doesn't happen at night, and as one of the article states, summer is the season when these deaths occur.
(7) The driver has to be away from the vehicle for a sufficient length of time for the vehicle to reach lethal conditions and for the child to die. Although it doesn't take long, most times, a trip inside the gas station or inside the store won't last long enough for the child to die.
(8) Autopilot engaged. For whatever reason, distraction, lack of sleep, routine tasks, change in routine, the higher parts of the brain are not focused on removing the child from the vehicle.
One more thing. The way our brain works does not require "autopilot" to be engaged the entire time that the child is in the car. Rather, it only requires that autopilot be engaged while exiting the car. Once the driver is out, the brain will not question the location of the child until prodded to do so. That's just the way the brain works.
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 9:46 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:38 pm to tankyank13
quote:
It would never happen to me and that is not a lie.
I find it astonishing how this very simple statement seems to be the outlier here. I agree with you 100%.
There are just so many things from which we can not protect our kids...things which truly are outside of our control... I see no reason to add things which are entirely preventable to that list.
And look...this isn't just about car safety for me. How many times, as a parent, do you see someone else's child do something while clearly not being paid attention to by their parent and think, "Holy shite...they're going to get hurt?" A lot, would be my answer.
But you know what...my child never got ran over in the street while he played in the drive way. That wasn't luck. When they'd play in the driveway, I'd place myself between them and the street. Always. Was it over protective? I mean...I guess, until it was needed and I was there. I could name 20 things like this that required a tad bit more effort than none but put my boys in a position of being safer. The car was no different.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:48 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:The two situations are different. Protecting your child from going into the street while playing in the driveway is different from leaving your child in the car. One is a conscious decision to exercise caution. The other is not a decision at all.
But you know what...my child never got ran over in the street while he played in the drive way. That wasn't luck. When they'd play in the driveway, I'd place myself between them and the street. Always. Was it over protective? I mean...I guess, until it was needed and I was there. I could name 20 things like this that required a tad bit more effort than none but put my boys in a position of being safer. The car was no different.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:50 pm to Salviati
quote:
For example, have you ever taken a drive from [Point A] to [Point B] and then thought to yourself: "Wow, I have almost no recollection of actually driving from [Point A] to [Point B]"? I'm not talking about "sleep walking" (or "sleep driving"). I'm talking about making a conscious decision to go somewhere, driving the distance, but having little or no recall of the actual driving that occurred while getting to your destination. Your driving is on autopilot.
Yes...I do this quite frequently if I have multiple places to go. I'll have one place in mind and forget I was planning on stopping another place first and blow right past it to stop 2, for instance. Not seeing how this relates to having my own child in the car, but I'll play along...
quote:
When driving on autopilot, you get to your destination, but the higher parts of your brain are not focused on operating the vehicle.
Not really following the point here, though this may have something to do with me driving a standard. It's one of things I love about driving them is that, even when I'm not completely focused I'm far more focused on the vehicle than I would be if I were driving a manual transmission vehicle.
quote:
These tragedies are like driving the car on autopilot. The brain is on autopilot when the parent exits the vehicle and goes about their day until the parent realizes too late. It’s not lack of care or concern for the child any more than one lacks care or concern for operating a vehicle that weighs several thousand pounds and capable of killing you and others. It’s just that the brain does not handle all input, functions, and operations in the highest parts of the brain. That, unfortunately, is humanity.
And this is where I think many of you are missing the point. When you have a child in the back seat, you are the one that is most likely to have taken the time to put them there yourself. In the case of a infant carrier, you've had to lug that out and click it into place. It's big and not at all invisible. With front facing car seats, you can literally see the face of your child if you angle your rear view mirror down a touch. I never once got into my car without being able to see my son's face as soon as he was old enough to face forward. Looking at him regularly was part of the routine as much as looking at mirrors and the speedometer.
quote:
(8) Autopilot engaged. For whatever reason, distraction, lack of sleep, routine tasks, change in routine, the higher parts of the brain are not focused on removing the child from the vehicle.
Again...I have no issue with the first 7, and I had read it the first time you posted it. My issue is with 8, because it simply tries to compare apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned.
All I can say is that none of thins rings true for MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE as a parent of two boys who was responsible for years and years for bringing them places both as part of and not part of routines. As distracted as I ever was, not once did I forget my child was with me. I was hypersensitive to it, to the point of still to this day I'll look back for them even when I know they are not there.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:56 pm to Salviati
quote:
Protecting your child from going into the street while playing in the driveway is different from leaving your child in the car. One is a conscious decision to exercise caution. The other is not a decision at all.
I disagree.
Why is it a failure to exercise caution by not fully committing to the fact that, even though your routine has changed, you are now responsible for your child's welfare? And since today's routine is going to be different, why is it too much to ask to focus on what makes today different?
We simply disagree on just how far off the rails one's autopilot can take them.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:58 pm to CBLSU316
Maybe to combat stupidity and irresponsibility of a few, new cars should have the ability to open the windows and sound the horn once certain high temperatures are reached along with motion inside the cabin.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:59 pm to GeauxTigerTM
I also blame the large SUVs. A kid in the back seat can easily be forgotten.
I also believe the autopilot brain can happen. It's been studied and confirmed it can happen. Everyone says it won't happen to them and cast down scathing judgement on grieving parents.
It's a shame and a tragedy for everyone involved. Why not withhold judgement and try to use it as a teachable moment to avoid it from happening to you.
Let the courts cast judgement.
I also believe the autopilot brain can happen. It's been studied and confirmed it can happen. Everyone says it won't happen to them and cast down scathing judgement on grieving parents.
It's a shame and a tragedy for everyone involved. Why not withhold judgement and try to use it as a teachable moment to avoid it from happening to you.
Let the courts cast judgement.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:59 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
And since today's routine is going to be different, why is it too much to ask to focus on what makes today different?
It's never just the "different routine" though. Something is always added to the mix that causes this: parent didn't sleep well, family member in hospital, IRS notices/demands, etc.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 10:00 pm to GeauxTigerTM
I appreciate that you thoughtfully considered my post. Thank you.
I still think you are wrong in your conclusion, and I think you should read Fatal Distraction, but I will simply agree to disagree. I hope that you can see the light someday.
I still think you are wrong in your conclusion, and I think you should read Fatal Distraction, but I will simply agree to disagree. I hope that you can see the light someday.
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 10:02 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 10:02 pm to Salviati
The entire autopilot thing is a great crutch argument and all, but I'm not buying it in totality here.
Eight hours is a long time for no reminder of any kind to jar your memory. I think if these autopilot episodes are as common as claimed, you would see more instances of these accidents than we do. I'll admit to the driving lapses as well.
There are no less than ten, twelve million infants in the US at any point. These routines are played out constantly, by all of these parents. Kids are surprisingly left places a lot, and it is quickly realized the vast majority of the time. The math just doesn't add up to say this could happen to anyone. I'm guessing there is some characteristic involved with these types of people. It's insanely rare.
Eight hours is a long time for no reminder of any kind to jar your memory. I think if these autopilot episodes are as common as claimed, you would see more instances of these accidents than we do. I'll admit to the driving lapses as well.
There are no less than ten, twelve million infants in the US at any point. These routines are played out constantly, by all of these parents. Kids are surprisingly left places a lot, and it is quickly realized the vast majority of the time. The math just doesn't add up to say this could happen to anyone. I'm guessing there is some characteristic involved with these types of people. It's insanely rare.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 10:02 pm to GeauxTigerTM
I get a down vote when I say I would never leave my child die in a car. 
I don't let my infant out of my sight, most parents don't, its protection mode 24/7.
I don't let my infant out of my sight, most parents don't, its protection mode 24/7.
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 10:06 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 10:04 pm to Golfer
Yeah. Anyone saying this would never happen to them is full of it unless they have the type of devices that help prevent it. My kid is 7 and a few months ago I had some hectic arse morning and drove to work with him back there. I pulled into the garage at work and he finally said something. I likely would have saw him once I parked because I purposely keep by computer and bag in the back seat. But if someone doesn't have a system it's very possible to have a perfect storm of things happen.
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 10:05 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 10:04 pm to The Third Leg
quote:
Eight hours is a long time for no reminder of any kind to jar your memory. I think if these autopilot episodes are as common as claimed, you would see more instances of these accidents than we do. I'll admit to the driving lapses as well.
Because they have convinced themselves that they did go to daycare, or that the other parent brought them.
We don't see it happen because it takes a perfect storm of happenings for it to end up in death. It's called the "Swiss cheese" theory iirc.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 10:06 pm to Golfer
quote:Yes. Yes, it is.
It's called the "Swiss cheese" theory iirc
I tried to lay out some of the holes.
Most tragedies happen because of many overlapping holes.
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