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re: ATL - Toddler Left in Car
Posted on 6/19/14 at 6:00 pm to RealityTiger
Posted on 6/19/14 at 6:00 pm to RealityTiger
I take my son to daycare five days a week. We do this weird thing on the way called talking. Even when he couldn't talk back, I'd point things out to him, show him the trainsand tractors along the way, stuff like that. I don't answer the phone, I don't text, I don't even curse the mother frickers who incessatly use the left lane for a leisurely drive to the food stamp office. We just talk. Makes a scenerio like this impossible for me, and don't get me wrong, I have sympathy, but only for the child and the wife. You have one fricking job as a parent. Protect your family.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 6:04 pm to GOON
I don't know if I could live with myself if I did something like that.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 6:05 pm to Pettifogger
quote:I pose this question to a lot of people. I have not yet met anyone who hasn't experienced it.
As for your example, sure I get it. I think most of us do that.
quote:At least eight circumstances have to come together for this tragedy to happen:
Far fewer will leave our kids in the car, and very few people experience this situation.
(1) The child has to be an infant or toddler. Older children can unbuckle themselves and get out of the car.
(2) The driver has to be without their spouse but with their young child. Many times, both spouses travel with their child. If the driver is with a spouse, this tragedy doesn't happen.
(3) The child has to be alone in the back seat without any siblings or other children. Many times, a child in a baby seat will travel with an older sibling in the backseat.
(4) The destination of the driver has to be different from the destination of the child. Many times, the parent is going to the same place as the young child: grandma's house, the driver’s friend’s house, fast food, or the store and return home.
(5) The young child has to be silent for a sufficient period of time before the driver exits the car. These tragedies don't happen to a baby that makes an occasional noise. It's more likely to happen to a sleeping baby.
(6) It has to be hot enough for the interior of the car to reach lethal conditions. It doesn't happen at night, and as one of the article states, summer is the season when these deaths occur.
(7) The driver has to be away from the vehicle for a sufficient length of time for the vehicle to reach lethal conditions and for the child to die. Although it doesn't take long, most times, a trip inside the gas station or inside the store won't last long enough for the child to die.
(8) Autopilot engaged. For whatever reason, distraction, lack of sleep, routine tasks, change in routine, the higher parts of the brain are not focused on removing the child from the vehicle. It's like driving a car on your brain's autopilot while you're thinking about something else. You get to your destination, but the higher parts of your brain are not focused on operating the vehicle. Similarly, your brain is on autopilot while you exit the vehicle and go about your day until you realize too late. It’s not lack of care or concern for the child any more than one lacks care or concern for operating a vehicle that weighs several thousand pounds and capable of killing you and others. It’s just that the brain does not handle all input, functions, and operations in the highest parts of the brain. That, unfortunately, is humanity.
Two more things and then I will end this already lengthy post: (1) I too have taken trips in which I reach my destination with little or no memory of the details of actually driving to my destination, and (2) I thank God for circumstance #7.
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 6:43 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 6:06 pm to BigSquirrel
Excatly. If you talk and actually pay attention to your child, you won't forget he's there.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 6:19 pm to Chimlim
A substantial proportion of the public reacts not merely with anger, but with frothing vitriol.
Ed Hickling believes he knows why. Hickling is a clinical psychologist from Albany, N.Y., who has studied the effects of fatal auto accidents on the drivers who survive them. He says these people are often judged with disproportionate harshness by the public, even when it was clearly an accident, and even when it was indisputably not their fault.
Humans, Hickling said, have a fundamental need to create and maintain a narrative for their lives in which the universe is not implacable and heartless, that terrible things do not happen at random, and that catastrophe can be avoided if you are vigilant and responsible.
In hyperthermia cases, he believes, the parents are demonized for much the same reasons. “We are vulnerable, but we don’t want to be reminded of that. We want to believe that the world is understandable and controllable and unthreatening, that if we follow the rules, we’ll be okay. So, when this kind of thing happens to other people, we need to put them in a different category from us. We don’t want to resemble them, and the fact that we might is too terrifying to deal with. So, they have to be monsters.”
Ed Hickling believes he knows why. Hickling is a clinical psychologist from Albany, N.Y., who has studied the effects of fatal auto accidents on the drivers who survive them. He says these people are often judged with disproportionate harshness by the public, even when it was clearly an accident, and even when it was indisputably not their fault.
Humans, Hickling said, have a fundamental need to create and maintain a narrative for their lives in which the universe is not implacable and heartless, that terrible things do not happen at random, and that catastrophe can be avoided if you are vigilant and responsible.
In hyperthermia cases, he believes, the parents are demonized for much the same reasons. “We are vulnerable, but we don’t want to be reminded of that. We want to believe that the world is understandable and controllable and unthreatening, that if we follow the rules, we’ll be okay. So, when this kind of thing happens to other people, we need to put them in a different category from us. We don’t want to resemble them, and the fact that we might is too terrifying to deal with. So, they have to be monsters.”
Posted on 6/19/14 at 6:25 pm to Chimlim
quote:
We do this weird thing on the way called talking.
quote:Not every trip is a short trip. Some trips last a long time. On occasion, children fall asleep in the car.
If you talk and actually pay attention to your child, you won't forget he's there.
*Of course, with the proper precautions, this tragedy is completely avoidable . . . until the day after the teddy bear was taken in the house to be cleaned, and it's not in the baby seat for the driver to put in the front seat.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 6:29 pm to PuntBamaPunt
I think what he is saying is fundamentally true, that people look for a sensible narrative or explanation for madness and tragedy. It makes you feel safe, as instability or the unknown is a great source of fear.
But here, I have trouble seeing the relevance. This was the guy's fault. If he does his job, the kid is alive. There is no mystery in this case. Catastrophe is avoided, in this case, if the guy is vigilant and responsible.
We can rely on statistics to exhibit that this is rare, and that most parents avoid this. But we're dealing with human being failures here, not weather or equipment failure. Maybe it comes out this guy had low blood pressure and was in a state of fog at the time, but I doubt it. He just forgot. If he followed the rules here, things would be ok. He didn't.
That isn't to say we're always going to follow the rules or that we're not going to make costly mistakes, but he's conflating the reactions, I think.
But here, I have trouble seeing the relevance. This was the guy's fault. If he does his job, the kid is alive. There is no mystery in this case. Catastrophe is avoided, in this case, if the guy is vigilant and responsible.
We can rely on statistics to exhibit that this is rare, and that most parents avoid this. But we're dealing with human being failures here, not weather or equipment failure. Maybe it comes out this guy had low blood pressure and was in a state of fog at the time, but I doubt it. He just forgot. If he followed the rules here, things would be ok. He didn't.
That isn't to say we're always going to follow the rules or that we're not going to make costly mistakes, but he's conflating the reactions, I think.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 6:32 pm to Salviati
quote:
*Of course, with the proper precautions, this tragedy is completely avoidable . . . until the day after the teddy bear was taken in the house to be cleaned, and it's not in the baby seat for the driver to put in the front seat.
Then you recognize what you're doing and you know that this could be the result, so you put it back.
I think there is little dispute here that people are imperfect and that accidents happen. But people can avoid accidents, and usually do. Most people avoid tragic accidents 100% of the time. Sometimes we're lucky, sometimes we're prepared, but most people are able to do it.
Maybe this guy just got unlucky, maybe his systems for this failed for a number of different and highly unlikely reasons. Or maybe he didn't have any systems, hadn't given this any thought, etc. I don't know.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 7:25 pm to BigSquirrel
quote:
I have sympathy, but only for the child and the wife. You have one fricking job as a parent. Protect your family.
This.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 8:40 pm to mikrit54
Still can't believe they hit him with a murder charge.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 8:44 pm to BigSquirrel
quote:
I take my son to daycare five days a week. We do this weird thing on the way called talking.
I'm pretty sure in almost all of these cases, the parent who leaves the child is not the primary transporter of the kid to daycare.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 8:47 pm to NorthshoreTiger76
quote:
Why??
Because, if anything, it was negligence.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 8:51 pm to Golfer
He could never go all day without his phone if he forgot it somewhere. I can't imagine how this happen's, my infant child crosses my mind every twenty minutes or so. It's straight neglect nothing more nothing less.
What a tragic death for that poor angel to be strapped in and die that way ...sickening
What a tragic death for that poor angel to be strapped in and die that way ...sickening
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 8:53 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 8:54 pm to Pettifogger
Your posts in this thread appear to reflect a distinctly legal analysis or tack in analyzing the issue. I like it. In particular, you seem to be focused on the duties/discretion of the prosecutor. It's a different perspective from most posts in this thread, and I appreciate it too.
Moreover, if the purpose of criminal penalties is to punish the wrongdoer and/or deter potential wrongdoers, I can't see how the potential for prison will punish the wrongdoer or potential wrongdoers any more than the death of their child.
Coming back full circle, if I was the prosecutor, I would thoroughly investigate the circumstances, and unless I believed it was gross negligence (e.g., drugs or alcohol involved) or worse, I would not file charges.
quote:The matter needs to be thoroughly investigated and prosecutorial decisions should flow from that investigation. If this tragedy was caused by anything close to an intentional act or gross negligence, the man should be prosecuted.
Or maybe he didn't have any systems, hadn't given this any thought, etc.
quote:Negligence is easy to understand in most cases involving a failure to take proper care or act as a prudent person. Failure to obey traffic signals is negligent. Simple. Failure to keep your car maintained is negligent if the failure to do so causes an accident. Simple. In both of those cases, one can imagine reasons why a person would be negligent: the person didn't want to put forth the effort, the person didn't want to pay the money, the person was in a hurry, etc. For each reason, one can imagine a cost/benefit analysis performed by the person, e.g. “I'll run the red light and save two minutes” or “I'll take the risk that the brakes might not work rather than spend the money.” It seems extremely unlikely to me that anyone would run a cost/benefit analysis on the decision to leave their child in a car all day, and I don't think there is any decision, conscious or subconscious, to leave the child in the car.
Then you recognize what you're doing and you know that this could be the result, so you put it back.
I think there is little dispute here that people are imperfect and that accidents happen. But people can avoid accidents, and usually do. Most people avoid tragic accidents 100% of the time. Sometimes we're lucky, sometimes we're prepared, but most people are able to do it.
Maybe this guy just got unlucky, maybe his systems for this failed for a number of different and highly unlikely reasons.
Moreover, if the purpose of criminal penalties is to punish the wrongdoer and/or deter potential wrongdoers, I can't see how the potential for prison will punish the wrongdoer or potential wrongdoers any more than the death of their child.
Coming back full circle, if I was the prosecutor, I would thoroughly investigate the circumstances, and unless I believed it was gross negligence (e.g., drugs or alcohol involved) or worse, I would not file charges.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 8:55 pm to tankyank13
quote:
He could never go all day about his phone if he forgot it somewhere. I can't imagine how this happen's my infant child crosses my mind every twenty minutes or so.
That's not the issue. If he knew he left his phone at home, he would know where it is.
The issue is that he truly thought his son was either brought to daycare by him or someone else.
Heck, he got in the car and drove home 2 miles before he realized. Likely when he spoke to his wife and she asked if he had picked him up yet.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 8:59 pm to Golfer
quote:
That's not the issue. If he knew he left his phone at home, he would know where it is.
To know exactly where your phone at any given moment..
He knows exactly where he leaves his phone, but does not know where he leaves his helpless child is the point
Either evil or under influence of drugs
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 9:01 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:02 pm to Salviati
quote:
Moreover, if the purpose of criminal penalties is to punish the wrongdoer and/or deter potential wrongdoers, I can't see how the potential for prison will punish the wrongdoer or potential wrongdoers any more than the death of their child.
Coming back full circle, if I was the prosecutor, I would thoroughly investigate the circumstances, and unless I believed it was gross negligence (e.g., drugs or alcohol involved) or worse, I would not file charges.
It's tough. I mentioned earlier in this thread I would charge him but that I think a court should show him leniency assuming nothing else comes out. But asking a prosecutor not to charge for what is probably pretty clearly criminal negligence is tough.
Not every parent will be self-punishing like this, sadly. I'm not sure what the best answer is.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:04 pm to tankyank13
quote:
To know exactly where your phone at any given moment.. He knows exactly where he leaves his phone, but does not know where he leaves his helpless child is the point
Okay look at it this way:
He gets to his desk, realizes his phone isn't with him. Says "oh, I left it charged on the counter." When he actually sat it on the hood of his car while loading up that morning.
It's the same thing. In his mind he dropped the kid off or his wife took him.
quote:
Either evil or under influence of drugs
Nothing else? I hope you never sit on my jury.
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 9:06 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 9:07 pm to BROffshoreTigerFan
quote:
I love all the super parents that come out when this topic comes up.
I love the assumption that it requires a "super parent" to not potentially leave their own child in a car to roast.
It doesn't. It really, really does not require anything other than simply paying attention.
Now...if in 2014 paying as much attention to one's offspring as we do to our cell phones and our busy days requires some kind of super power, than hand me a cape...because apparently I have that special skill. It never felt all that special to me, but I'm willing to admit that given just ow badly some here want to excuse this behavior I may very well be the outlier.
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