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Posted on 6/10/15 at 1:59 pm to Shepherd88
The transitive property doesn't always work in sports. This is one of those instances.
The goal is to win the race, not chase the track record. Therefore, AP ran the race with a strategy that was the most likely to result in a win.
He controlled the early pace and set reasonable fractions of 24 and change, with no split above 25. Without another horse pushing for the lead, there was no reason to go any faster and risk losing. However, this doesn't mean that he couldn't have gone faster if necessary..... which is the flawed assumption when trying to compare the two.
With sham challenging for the lead in the backstretch, the '73 splits were 23.6, 22.6, & 23.6. So, the pace during the 2nd 1/4 mile alone accounts for the full 2-sec differential in the final time.
AP actually ran the 2nd half of the Belmont faster than big red.
The goal is to win the race, not chase the track record. Therefore, AP ran the race with a strategy that was the most likely to result in a win.
He controlled the early pace and set reasonable fractions of 24 and change, with no split above 25. Without another horse pushing for the lead, there was no reason to go any faster and risk losing. However, this doesn't mean that he couldn't have gone faster if necessary..... which is the flawed assumption when trying to compare the two.
With sham challenging for the lead in the backstretch, the '73 splits were 23.6, 22.6, & 23.6. So, the pace during the 2nd 1/4 mile alone accounts for the full 2-sec differential in the final time.
AP actually ran the 2nd half of the Belmont faster than big red.
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:02 pm to lsupride87
Was coming here to post pretty much this.
For those of you that argue Secretariat's the GOAT, I don't have much to to disprove you. In big events/arena's, where the lights were brightest, I don't think anyone would argue.
BUT, for those that argue AGAINST Man o War, ask yourself this......how good must that horse have if he didn't win a triple crown, yet you still know his name 100 years later, and admit he belongs in the discussion.
My take is this.......all around, counting his stud career, Man o War is the GOAT. However, if him and Secretariat had an "at their prime match race" tomorrow, I could not bet against Secretariat.
For those of you that argue Secretariat's the GOAT, I don't have much to to disprove you. In big events/arena's, where the lights were brightest, I don't think anyone would argue.
BUT, for those that argue AGAINST Man o War, ask yourself this......how good must that horse have if he didn't win a triple crown, yet you still know his name 100 years later, and admit he belongs in the discussion.
My take is this.......all around, counting his stud career, Man o War is the GOAT. However, if him and Secretariat had an "at their prime match race" tomorrow, I could not bet against Secretariat.
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:07 pm to kywildcatfanone
Secretariat's Belmont win gets all the press, but his performance in the Preakness was also incredible. He went last to first off the first turn in like 15 seconds, just blowing by fresh horses like they were standing still.
LINK
People don't appreciate how good Sham was. He still shares the Santa Anita Derby record time. Ran the fourth fastest Kentucky Derby ever and fifth fastest Preakness, then damn near ran himself to death trying to keep pace with Secretariat in the Belmont. They were cousins, BTW (same grandfather on their mother's side).
LINK
People don't appreciate how good Sham was. He still shares the Santa Anita Derby record time. Ran the fourth fastest Kentucky Derby ever and fifth fastest Preakness, then damn near ran himself to death trying to keep pace with Secretariat in the Belmont. They were cousins, BTW (same grandfather on their mother's side).
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:11 pm to Speedy G
quote:
He went last to first off the first turn in like 15 seconds, just blowing by fresh horses like they were standing still.
And he broke last in the Derby and still broke that record
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:12 pm to TigerTreyjpg
quote:He had the best performances in the history of the Triple Crown races. No question.
For those of you that argue Secretariat's the GOAT, I don't have much to to disprove you.
But the risk Turcotte took in the Belmont was borderline insane. It's unlikely that you'll ever see that time or margin of victory matched, because there really is no reason to take that risk.
quote:The triple crown wasn't a big deal back then. The only reason he didn't win the race is because he didn't run. The MoW owner and the people of Churchill Downs didn't exactly get along.
BUT, for those that argue AGAINST Man o War, ask yourself this......how good must that horse have if he didn't win a triple crown,
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:14 pm to Mahootney
quote:
Mahootney
This is why I come here. Smart dudes like you.
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:14 pm to Mahootney
With Secretariat beating Sham by 31 lengths I would beg to differ that there wasn't any horse "pushing" Secretariat to go faster.
So your point that AP didn't have to push any faster just because, doesn't hold ground.
So your point that AP didn't have to push any faster just because, doesn't hold ground.
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:15 pm to Shepherd88
quote:Have you not seen the first half of the race? Sham pushed the ever living shite out of Big Red
With Secretariat beating Sham by 31 lengths I would beg to differ that there wasn't any horse "pushing" Secretariat to go faster
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:16 pm to Shepherd88
quote:
Secretariat was the GOAT, undisputed GOAT too.
BINGO
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:18 pm to LSUcrawfish
quote:16-5. He is the undisputed triple crown goat. Overall horse is very disputed. Big red was know to throw in some shitty races from time to time. He was a beatable horse if the race didnt work out his way. Man O' War was simply unbeatable, and everyone knew it
BINGO
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:20 pm to Shepherd88
quote:You completely misunderstand my point. I'm saying that Sham was pushing Secretariat for the lead... that's why the 2nd 1/4 mile was a stupid 22.6. (The entire differential in the final times between Big Red and AP).
With Secretariat beating Sham by 31 lengths I would beg to differ that there wasn't any horse "pushing" Secretariat to go faster.
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:21 pm to Shepherd88
So much unsubstantiated conjecture.
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:21 pm to Artie Rome
quote:
Artie Rome
We do have some smart, informed people around here.
But mostly, we just come around for the NSFW threads.
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:27 pm to lsupride87
quote:Sorry man, didn't see the topic come up.
Where were yall on the MSB yesterday? I got my arse handed to me for saying the exact same things
I make it a point to avoid arguing with stupid and/or ignorant people.
They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:28 pm to Mahootney
AP would be the GOAT in my book if not for the whole beating his kid thing
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:49 pm to dr smartass phd
Sham knocked out two teeth leaving the gate in the Derby and still finished second, eight lengths clear with a bloody mouth (and would be track record).
Posted on 6/10/15 at 2:54 pm to Shepherd88
quote:
He won the Belmont by 31 lengths. 2.65 seconds faster than American Pharoah. That's pretty unreal
American Pharoah ran either the last quarter or eighth (can't remember which) at Belmont faster than Secretariat. If his jockey gives him his head earler in the race, that 2.65 second gap would be a good bit less.
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