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Trade Lonzo and Favors for a good PG

Posted on 12/8/19 at 10:01 pm
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
17814 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 10:01 pm
Let's look at the roster problems for the Pels, and their solutions. Our biggest problem has been that our starting PF (Zion) and our starting C (Favors) have missed almost all of our games so far. But both of those problems will come to an end soon: Favors in the next couple of days (probably tomorrow), and Zion by Christmas.

The lack of rim protection that Zion and Favors offer has meant that opposing wings have had little difficulty getting to the rim. We knew that Redick, Moore, and Frank were poor on-ball defenders, but we thought that problem would be mitigated by the ability to erase shots at the rim.

Jaxson Hayes does have the ability to erase shots at the rim, but he's prone to fouls and also lacks the core strength to box out for defensive rebounds (leading to lots of 2nd-chance points for the opponent) and to prevent big centers from pushing him out of the way and getting easy shots at the rim.

But Jaxson's weaknesses will be greatly reduced when he's on the court with Zion, as Zion can guard the Dwight Howard, Rudy Gobert, and Marc Gasol's of the world -- the big centers who can push Jaxson around can't push Zion around. And Zion can also box out for DREBs, Jaxson's other weakness.

Here's another thing I want you to consider:

Jrue + Ingram together
With Kenrich on the floor: net rating of +4.4
Without him on the floor: net rating of -11.7

One of the stories that's been lost in all the defeats and general suckiness is the incredible development of Kenrich Williams. If you look at any kind of advanced stats, you see that Kenrich has been phenomenal. His overall BPM has gone from -0.3 last year to +0.7 this season. The RAPTOR ratings at 538 have Kenrich as our 2nd-best player so far -- even ahead of Ingram (though I think this is because Ingram's defensive rating has been hurt so much by playing at PF). But the point remains that Kenrich is really good and needs to be on the floor. It's not just his own stats -- he makes his teammates a lot better.

But Kenrich can't be on the floor if Zion and Favors are out there. And don't forget that this is only Kenrich's 2nd NBA season and that he spent a fair amount of last year in the G-League. He's improved so much and is getting better every single day.

Finally, consider that what we saw in the preseason was that Zion's numbers were much better when he played C instead of PF. He had more clear paths to the rim and was much more efficient. Favors cannot go out to the 3-pt line and create space for Zion, and so Favors is really not a good fit long-term next to Zion.

In concluding Part 1 of this essay, I think that I've established that, once Zion returns, we really don't need Derrick Favors. A big-man rotation of Kenrich, Zion, and Jaxson will work extremely well. We'll have Melli to sub in for minutes at PF (will be much less of a defensive disaster with Zion at C) and Okafor to sub in at C.

Finally, some have said that trading Favors would deter others from wanting to play in New Orleans. I think that's ridiculous. The Pels have treated Favors well in giving him time, and he's only played a total of 189 minutes through 23 games.

Part 1 conclusion: Derrick Favors is not a long-term answer for the Pelicans at C. He will be a free agent next summer, and if he's still on the team, we would let him walk. We can get something for him now, and we really don't need him once we get Zion back.

And we really do need a quality starting guard right now, and trading him could help us get one (next post).
This post was edited on 12/8/19 at 11:13 pm
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
17814 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 10:02 pm to
Part 2: why Lonzo simply must go, and we must get a new starting guard to replace him.

Lonzo has been horrifically bad. The individual stats don't tell the full story. On offense, he either stands around doing nothing or jacks up contested 3s. Despite jacking up incredible numbers of 3s, his 3-pt % is currently below league average. His help defense has been terrible.

Look at what he does to the net rating of his talented teammates:

Jrue + Ingram on the floor

With Lonzo on the floor: -15.5
Without him on the floor: +0.9

That's right -- when he is on the court, he makes Jrue and Ingram into objectively bad players.

Lonzo was also a poor fit with Zion in the preseason. We didn't see lots of great pick-and-roll plays with the two of them, because they don't work, because Lonzo won't go to the basket and teams know it.

It just seems so funny that we let Elfrid go because we didn't have room for him on this team and we had the talented Lonzo Ball coming in. I know that Elfrid's been hurt, but man I wish we had him now.

We have no good alternatives on our roster to starting Lonzo.

Don't tell me that we can start Redick. JJ has proven to be a dreadful defender -- one of the worst in the league. We can't start him. What do you want to do when we play the Rockets and he has to guard either Harden or Westbrook? Or the Blazers and he has to guard either Lillard or McCollum? He simply can't. Our team is one of the all-time bad defensive teams, and Redick is part of that.

The whole point of getting JJ Redick was that we could bring him off the bench, and he could give us scoring with the 2nd unit, when he would be guarding some team's sub at guard, someone less talented than their starting guards -- someone less able to take advantage of his poor defense.

Josh Hart has played well, but he's not starting quality, and we need his minutes backing up Ingram at SF. Moore is like Redick, only slightly less good on offense and slightly less bad on defense. Frank has statistically been one of the eight worst players in the league, at any position. NAW isn't ready to start, and he needs to develop by coming off the bench.

So, we need a starter at guard, preferably at PG. Favors is the asset we trade -- he's an above-average starter and would command a player of equal talent. Getting rid of Lonzo is addition by subtraction for us, but Lonzo still has potential and a rebuilding team might want to try to develop him.

I believe that this trade will happen in December. We have to make a roster move by the 31st to open a spot for Didi, which Griffin indicated is going to happen. I haven't really thought about who we could trade for.

TLDR: the conventional wisdom that we might trade Favors for a big who can shoot 3s is wrong. We should trade Favors for a PG who will drive to the basket and fits with Zion. We have Moore's $5 million and Miller's $7 million if we need to send out more salary, depending on who we want.
This post was edited on 12/8/19 at 10:30 pm
Posted by Eman5805
West Bank
Member since Nov 2010
5098 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 10:20 pm to
You said quite a bit. But have you considered which good PG?
Posted by Macintosh504
Leveraging Salaries University
Member since Sep 2011
52598 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 10:20 pm to
Do you honestly think we will get a good PG for Lonzo and Favors?
Posted by Pistol44
New Orleans
Member since Jun 2019
1830 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 10:25 pm to
It's unfortunate that Favors has missed so much time personally and on the court. I believe Favors absence along with Zion has contributed to our Pels current state. Zion, despite his 280 lbs. is only 6'6. He can not consistently bang with the Goberts, Jokics, Howards, and Embids. Their height advantage gives them leverage with all the jocking for position down low. Favors 20-20 game showed enough for me to run with him as our starting Center with Jaxon backing up Favors and Zion at the 4/5. Kenrich absolutely needs to be in the starting lineup with Zion and Favors missing. Once Zion and Favors are back he can slide back into backing up BI and Zion at the 3/4.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
17814 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 10:32 pm to
quote:

Do you honestly think we will get a good PG for Lonzo and Favors?


It might require including a pick or two, but Favors is an above-average center. He's a good player, and all I want in return is a good player.
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
61472 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 11:25 pm to
Teams where Lonzo's ability and/or star power/youth are an upgrade over the current PGs:

Magic
Knicks
Pistons
Bulls
Heat
Wolves

Of that group, workable trades I can see:

Bulls - Satoransky for Lonzo straight up
Pistons - Blake Griffin for Lonzo/Favors/Darius Miller
Heat - Dragic for Lonzo/Miller
Wolves - Jeff Teague for Lonzo/Miller

Sweetener might need to be added to some of these on either side, but I think these are all realistic frameworks for deals.
Posted by Pelefraan 1
Member since Jan 2018
6706 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 11:27 pm to
Didi isn't coming this season

LINK

quote:

Sydney Kings CEO Chris Pongrass has confirmed NBL Next Star Didi Louzada will remain with the club for the entire NBL season.



The New Orleans Pelicans own Louzada’s NBA rights, with some reports suggesting the NBA club could recall the Brazilian sensation before the NBL season ends.



Sydney has all but ruled out that possibility though, explaining how New Orleans are thrilled with Louzada’s progression in the NBL.



"Absolutely not,” Pongrass told SEN radio, when asked about suggestions the Pelicans are going to call up Louzada.



“He is with us for the year. He is committed, and the Pelicans have shown commitment to say that they obviously are very happy with how he's developed as a player and the level of talent we've been able to surround him with, his English is improving, his knowledge of the game is improving, his development on and off the court.
This post was edited on 12/8/19 at 11:29 pm
Posted by Macintosh504
Leveraging Salaries University
Member since Sep 2011
52598 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 11:38 pm to
What’s your take on the Kings potentially trading Fox for Lonzo and favors? Fox is gonna ask for a big pay day when his contracts up and the kings are already paying buddy big money and will have to pay bagley in the future. They need a big man. They’ve been playing better since fox got hurt. Plus it’s the Kings
Posted by Pelefraan 1
Member since Jan 2018
6706 posts
Posted on 12/8/19 at 11:58 pm to
They have Bagley. They didn't take Doncic because of Fox. Keep dreaming
Posted by LilWezyAna
BR
Member since Feb 2016
3140 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 12:25 am to
Dragic would be cool but I really don’t think the heat want to change anything right now, considering Lonzo would just eat at Herro and Nunn’s future minutes and Favors would just be a bench player for them
Posted by Macintosh504
Leveraging Salaries University
Member since Sep 2011
52598 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 12:46 am to
quote:

Keep dreaming
I will
Posted by Markie812
Louisiana
Member since Nov 2007
2934 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 1:28 am to
I think finding a trade partner is going to be difficult especially early on so while I agree the Pels will be active in looking for a trade iI just don’t think it will come by the end of the month but rather close to the deadline. We definitely have pieces that teams would like to shed money next year but doing the right deal is important. It really would be nice to get rid of Ball though.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
17814 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 6:38 am to
quote:

Sydney Kings CEO Chris Pongrass has confirmed NBL Next Star Didi Louzada will remain with the club for the entire NBL season. 


I have to say that this was a weird article, because this Pongrass guy didn't say that Griffin or Trajan had made any promises. It was that Didi was happy in Sydney and the Pels were happy with the progress he's making. My thinking is that, yeah, maybe we're so happy with his progress that we bring him to Louisiana. It was just so very odd, and the article is obviously in direct contradiction to Griffin's comments at the chalk talk he gave that we'd be recalling Didi "sooner rather than later."

But thanks for sharing it. I guess we'll see.
Posted by Soggymoss
Member since Aug 2018
14257 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 7:13 am to
I agree with half of it.

We need to trade Lonzo, but not for a PG. I really don't see any PG in the league that a team would trade that would be an upgrade.

Minnesota needs a guy with Zo's skillset pretty bad, and they have a guy we could use in Covington, and bringing him in would solve alot of problems.

1)I let Jrue, Ingram and Zion handle primary ball handling duties, eliminating the need for a true PG.

2) I trot out a starting lineup of Jrue,Ingram,Covington,Zion,Favors with primary backups of NAW,Redick,Hart,Kenrich,Hayes.

We would have mismatches all over the court, good shooters around Zion and Favors, and we may even be able to talk Minny into giving us a protected pick back.
Posted by Sharp85
Member since Jan 2019
846 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 7:21 am to
How about you just keep letting Lonzo improve and let Zion come back.
Posted by Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
12646 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 7:35 am to
Would they actually be open to that? I do think you touch upon an important point. Which is why are we even looking toward a ball dominant floor general? Not saying it couldn’t work, but is it actually necessary given our core is made up of ball handlers.

We’ve honestly seen our greatest lineup success with Jrue, Reddick, Ingram, and Williams together. There is no traditional point guard but why would you need one? Throw Zion in there, another capable ball handler, and you already have 3 above average ball handlers/facilitators in Ingram, Jrue, and Zion. That’s also why I am really rooting for NAW to develop as a combo on-ball/off-ball guard, because that Patrick Beverly archetype is perfect for this core imo.
Posted by Soggymoss
Member since Aug 2018
14257 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 7:39 am to
Griff said in his introduction interviews that he had 1st round picks offered for all 3 guys. Minnesota went hard after Dlo,so they know they have a void at PG.

Zo would be perfect for them especially with his improving shot. Not saying they would be open to koving Covington, just by looking at their roster it would make sense for both teams imo
Posted by Soggymoss
Member since Aug 2018
14257 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 7:41 am to
Lonzo is actually regressing.

He should be the guy setting up the entire offense and directing guys to their places, instead he seems to want to jack up 10 3's a game.

Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that he has improved his shot to where it is, I don't like the fact that he thinks he's Curry out there
Posted by Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
12646 posts
Posted on 12/9/19 at 7:53 am to
Unfortunately, as is always the case with underperforming teams, I worry just how much Lonzo’s stock has now dropped.

Before this season there was definitely a lot more momentum toward the theory that the Lakers were just rotten and Lonzo would improve once away. But how much are teams really gonna pay for a poor shooter that insists on chucking and has been a below average facilitator? Especially when his running mate Ingram is proving there was merit to that theory, just not for Lonzo?
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