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The Ty Lue potential Head Coach Thread
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:11 pm
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:11 pm
I think at this point, we have to acknowledge that he's Griff's #1 choice. Griff interviewed him in the bubble, the only such person we know of. He was linked to us minutes after Gentry was fired by Woj. He's the only one we know of that we have or will formally interview. Griff wanted to hire him instead of Blatt in Cleveland but was forced into Blatt by ownership. The second he could be made HC, he was. There's even a report that he would have fired Gentry in the season if Lue had been available.
It's pretty clear that he is Griff's guy. We may not get him but its clear this is who the FO wants.
So let's discuss him in depth.
How do you feel about the potential hire? If you don't like it, what are you basing that on?
Likewise, if you do like it, what are you basing that on? Why?
A few facts:
He's 43 years old, so still a pretty young coach. He played in the NBA for 11 seasons. He has spent most of his Assistant Coaching career under Doc Rivers, following him around, outside of the brief time under Blatt.
As a HC, he obviously did very well, winning a championship. On the flipside, he had the greatest player of a generation and two other pretty damn good players on those teams. But he won a lot of games. When Lebron was gone, the shell of the Cavs went 0-6 and he left the team.
He is highly respected for his Xs and Os, especially being adept at Out of Timeout plays (ATOs).
Guys like Kevin Love and Richard Jefferson have raved about his Basketball IQ and think very highly of him as a coach. There are reports that he was the only one in the Cavs organization who would try keep Lebron in line, infamously telling him to "shut the frick up" in a huddle.
His teams play Defense.
The downside is of course that people give Lebron the credit for his wins and championship, and Lue's facial expressions make him one of the most meme-able guys out there, with a lot of people assuming he is clueless. It could also be leveled that this isn't a needle moving hire, that he's just another retread that could do fine, but he's not a potentially paradigm shifting guy like a Brad Stephens or Erik Spoelstra type.
What are your thoughts?
It's pretty clear that he is Griff's guy. We may not get him but its clear this is who the FO wants.
So let's discuss him in depth.
How do you feel about the potential hire? If you don't like it, what are you basing that on?
Likewise, if you do like it, what are you basing that on? Why?
A few facts:
He's 43 years old, so still a pretty young coach. He played in the NBA for 11 seasons. He has spent most of his Assistant Coaching career under Doc Rivers, following him around, outside of the brief time under Blatt.
As a HC, he obviously did very well, winning a championship. On the flipside, he had the greatest player of a generation and two other pretty damn good players on those teams. But he won a lot of games. When Lebron was gone, the shell of the Cavs went 0-6 and he left the team.
He is highly respected for his Xs and Os, especially being adept at Out of Timeout plays (ATOs).
Guys like Kevin Love and Richard Jefferson have raved about his Basketball IQ and think very highly of him as a coach. There are reports that he was the only one in the Cavs organization who would try keep Lebron in line, infamously telling him to "shut the frick up" in a huddle.
His teams play Defense.
The downside is of course that people give Lebron the credit for his wins and championship, and Lue's facial expressions make him one of the most meme-able guys out there, with a lot of people assuming he is clueless. It could also be leveled that this isn't a needle moving hire, that he's just another retread that could do fine, but he's not a potentially paradigm shifting guy like a Brad Stephens or Erik Spoelstra type.
What are your thoughts?
10
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:16 pm to Fun Bunch
I’m okay with it, mostly because of these things:
quote:
He is highly respected for his Xs and Os, especially being adept at Out of Timeout plays (ATOs).
quote:
There are reports that he was the only one in the Cavs organization who would try keep Lebron in line, infamously telling him to "shut the frick up" in a huddle.
quote:
His teams play Defense.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:21 pm to Fun Bunch
He fits the description of what Griffin talked about when he fired Gentry. Basically a guy who wouldn’t question or challenge Griff, the Front office, or the medical staff and one who won’t require you to turnover the current staff that was hired only a year ago. He’ll do his job and players like him and respect him.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:23 pm to Fun Bunch
Exactly what you said at the end. The absolute best possible outcome is he’s an above average NBA lifer/retread who, if given a team with top 5 talent, can make a conference finals run.
He’s not a franchise changing guy or a culture changing guy. Hiring him is basically putting all the eggs into the “Hope Zion becomes an mvp level player” basket.
To me the hire worries me that Griff doesn’t know what the frick he’s doing. He’s trying to replicate a formula that worked in Cleveland with arguably the greatest player of all time at the peak of his powers. Which is incredibly far from our current situation. The more decisions he makes the more it looks like Griff is a professional, competent GM, but he’s far from a visionary that will turn the Pels into perennial contenders
He’s not a franchise changing guy or a culture changing guy. Hiring him is basically putting all the eggs into the “Hope Zion becomes an mvp level player” basket.
To me the hire worries me that Griff doesn’t know what the frick he’s doing. He’s trying to replicate a formula that worked in Cleveland with arguably the greatest player of all time at the peak of his powers. Which is incredibly far from our current situation. The more decisions he makes the more it looks like Griff is a professional, competent GM, but he’s far from a visionary that will turn the Pels into perennial contenders
This post was edited on 10/2/20 at 1:26 pm
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:24 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
Basically a guy who wouldn’t question or challenge Griff, the Front office, or the medical staff and one who won’t require you to turnover the current staff that was hired only a year ago.
Yeah this is the part of this whole thing that I don't love.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:25 pm to Fun Bunch
I would not be thrilled if we hired him.
I think he's a lot better than Gentry though, and i also wouldn't be nearly as mad about hiring him as i was with Gentry.
I would without a doubt get behind the hire and root for him , and i think he could potentially be a really good coach, but i'd much rather go a different direction.
D'Antoni would be the home run hire.
Atkinson would be the retread hire i'd go for.
But i'd much prefer a younger up and coming assistant.
If D'Antoni said no, Atkinson said no, and the young assistants didn't impress in interviews while Lue did impress, then ok.
I do not like that he appears to be the guy Griff wants above all else. I don't trust Griffin. I hope they both prove me wrong.
I think he's a lot better than Gentry though, and i also wouldn't be nearly as mad about hiring him as i was with Gentry.
I would without a doubt get behind the hire and root for him , and i think he could potentially be a really good coach, but i'd much rather go a different direction.
D'Antoni would be the home run hire.
Atkinson would be the retread hire i'd go for.
But i'd much prefer a younger up and coming assistant.
If D'Antoni said no, Atkinson said no, and the young assistants didn't impress in interviews while Lue did impress, then ok.
I do not like that he appears to be the guy Griff wants above all else. I don't trust Griffin. I hope they both prove me wrong.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:27 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
The downside is of course that people give Lebron the credit for his wins and championship,
Same thing was said about Spoelstra also
Also, this
quote:
“If there’s no Ty Lue, there’s no title.” — David Griffin on the Cavs’ 2016 title run. LINK
Lue was the architec of that defense that brought them back from a 3-1 deficit
This post was edited on 10/2/20 at 1:31 pm
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:29 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
Same thing was said about Spoelstra also
Yup. Spo has had the chance to prove this wasn't the case, Lue obviously really hasn't. He will get that chance with someone now.
I am pretty mixed. I'm not going to melt at all. He won a lot of games and players speak very highly of him.
But it just feels kind of uninspired.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:39 pm to Soggymoss
Lebron has played 16 years in the league and won 3 titles. Let’s pretend his team are guaranteed rings 
Nurse won w Kawhi
Kerr with curry/Durant/klay/dray
Pop w Duncan/parker/kawhi/Manu
Carlisle w dirk
Phil with Jordan/Pippen/Kobe/Gasol/Shaq
Doc with the big 3
Stan Van w Wade and Shaq
Rudy with dream and Clyde
It’s almost like well built teams centered around top 50 all time players hoist the trophy at the end. No coach has ever willed a team to a title
Nurse won w Kawhi
Kerr with curry/Durant/klay/dray
Pop w Duncan/parker/kawhi/Manu
Carlisle w dirk
Phil with Jordan/Pippen/Kobe/Gasol/Shaq
Doc with the big 3
Stan Van w Wade and Shaq
Rudy with dream and Clyde
It’s almost like well built teams centered around top 50 all time players hoist the trophy at the end. No coach has ever willed a team to a title
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:39 pm to Soggymoss
We ideally need a coach to do 3 things:
1.Get these great individual defenders to play great team defense.
2. Strong In game management which includes timing of timeouts, substitutions, and Good plays out of timeouts.
3. Design an offense around Zion and making sure there is synergy from his teammates.
If Lue can offer that, he’s fine in the timeline.
1.Get these great individual defenders to play great team defense.
2. Strong In game management which includes timing of timeouts, substitutions, and Good plays out of timeouts.
3. Design an offense around Zion and making sure there is synergy from his teammates.
If Lue can offer that, he’s fine in the timeline.
This post was edited on 10/2/20 at 1:40 pm
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:44 pm to Epic Cajun
Counterpoint
- David Blatt had a better record than Lue up until his firing that season.
- Lue actually transitioned the defense from being the 3rd in the league to 11th. His changes were largely offensive. where the team jumped from 5th to 3rd for the rest of the season, but that leap, to his credit, increased the overall net rating of the team by 0.6. However, every subsequent season the defense regressed further. The next year coming in at 21st in the league. The year after that, 29th in the league. So this idea of him as a defensive team specialist doesn't really align with reality.
- This years Lakers team sort of reinforces that Lebron is really good at making coaches look better than they are. Vogel isn't bad, in fact, he got a bit of a bad rap, but he hasn't really done anything magical to get the Lakers where they are, he just has two top 5/top 10 players in his arsenal and a bunch of smart vets that are hungry and have seen every side of the league.
- David Blatt had a better record than Lue up until his firing that season.
- Lue actually transitioned the defense from being the 3rd in the league to 11th. His changes were largely offensive. where the team jumped from 5th to 3rd for the rest of the season, but that leap, to his credit, increased the overall net rating of the team by 0.6. However, every subsequent season the defense regressed further. The next year coming in at 21st in the league. The year after that, 29th in the league. So this idea of him as a defensive team specialist doesn't really align with reality.
- This years Lakers team sort of reinforces that Lebron is really good at making coaches look better than they are. Vogel isn't bad, in fact, he got a bit of a bad rap, but he hasn't really done anything magical to get the Lakers where they are, he just has two top 5/top 10 players in his arsenal and a bunch of smart vets that are hungry and have seen every side of the league.
This post was edited on 10/2/20 at 1:58 pm
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:45 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
It’s almost like well built teams centered around top 50 all time players hoist the trophy at the end. No coach has ever willed a team to a title
You are without a doubt right.
But when you are a small market franchise, one that has no history of success, you need to have edges somewhere. One area you can do that is coaching.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:48 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
It’s almost like well built teams centered around top 50 all time players hoist the trophy at the end. No coach has ever willed a team to a title
What Spo is doing this year is your example.
Who were the top 50 players on the Pistons Larry Brown championship team? that same coach got Allen Iverson's terrible supporting cast to the Finals as well.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:50 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
I am pretty mixed. I'm not going to melt at all. He won a lot of games and players speak very highly of him.
But it just feels kind of uninspired.
I think that's how most people feel. It will be very easy to find positives to be happy about it, but right now, it just feels like it would be an uninspiring hire.
There was nothign positive to find about Gentry being hired. THere's lots of positives to be talked about hiring Lue.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:57 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I think that's how most people feel. It will be very easy to find positives to be happy about it, but right now, it just feels like it would be an uninspiring hire.
There was nothign positive to find about Gentry being hired. THere's lots of positives to be talked about hiring Lue.
Such as?
I mean really, what is he bringing over what we got from Alvin?
Not being rude, but I stand back and analyze it and I am not really coming up with much?
Alvin actually put out better defenses, despite a less talented/less healthy roster most seasons, and while Lue's offensive execution is worth giving credit for, I wouldn't exactly praise his prowess in that regard.
He seems to be liked and respected by players, but so was Gentry up until some rumblings from this season.
I'm at the point where I'm just bracing for it, so I won't melt, but it seems like the most nepotistic and uninspiring choice out there right now.
This post was edited on 10/2/20 at 1:59 pm
Posted on 10/2/20 at 1:58 pm to TeddyPadillac
There are a lot of positives.
And sometimes just a solid hire is the right one. A lot of teams seem to want him, so what do we know?
And sometimes just a solid hire is the right one. A lot of teams seem to want him, so what do we know?
Posted on 10/2/20 at 2:01 pm to Fun Bunch
At the same time, a lot of teams were rumored to want him or supposedly had him near the top of their list, including his current employer, and many have quickly jumped on other prospects as they arose or began casting a much wider net.
I think that also says something.
I think that also says something.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 2:05 pm to Bronc
If Lue takes the Job here, this will be his defining moment. He will be able to mold the team in whatever direction he takes them vs a team like Houston and LAC where he’ll have to adjust his coaching to fit these established teams. We’d find out how good of a coach Lue is real quickly.
This post was edited on 10/2/20 at 2:06 pm
Posted on 10/2/20 at 2:13 pm to Bronc
quote:
I mean really, what is he bringing over what we got from Alvin?
Alvin lost everywhere he went. Yeah he had a few no win situations, but he took a Suns team that was clicking and made them progressively worst, up until he had a record breaking start to the season and was fired.
We had a long history of what Alvin had done, and it wasn't good.
I guess the biggest thing is we don't have that history with Lue. We hear all the good things, but he still hasn't had the time to really prove he's a good or bad coach yet, as his good is hampered by everyones mindset that anyone could be good with Lebron.
It was rumored it was contract disputes as to why he didn't get the Lakers job over Vogel. Seems like if Lebron really wanted him, they would have hired him regardless of what he was asking for. The fact that he wasn't hired by the Lakers, is maybe telling that Lebron didn't really want him.
Posted on 10/2/20 at 2:19 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Alvin lost everywhere he went. Yeah he had a few no win situations, but he took a Suns team that was clicking and made them progressively worst, up until he had a record breaking start to the season and was fired.
We had a long history of what Alvin had done, and it wasn't good.
I'm not about to defend Gentry, but if we are comparing and contrasting, at least Gentry took a quickly regressing team after D'Antoni left back to relevancy(remember, MDA left and Terry Porter took over, went 28-23 and was fired and replaced by Gentry). Next season he got that 46 win team back 54 wins and the furthest it had ever gotten.
Then he lost their best player in Amare and Steve Nash turned 36 and began to progressively decline and miss time to injury.
I guess for me I just don't see a ton that Lue brings that you can't find in equal or better supply elsewhere. Or that would at least bring a potential ceiling that projects higher and if we are, and I'm in agreement, treating Lue sort of like a wildcard in being able to handle this type of situation, there are a lot of other wildcards I'd prefer.
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