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re: Spacing on this team is terrible.

Posted on 1/5/21 at 9:24 am to
Posted by GynoSandberg
Bay St Louis, MS
Member since Jan 2006
73869 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 9:24 am to
Zion should watch some Sabonis tape and the way he passes out of the post. Z is hellbent and focused on fighting through 2-3 guys and never looks to the perimeter. We don’t have the sharpest of shooter but I feel like we’ve shot a high % on open threes - and guys are open out there when Zion has the ball in the post
Posted by LSU Fan 90812
A man more eviler than Skeletor.
Member since Feb 2005
50655 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 9:50 am to
Ha the world should watch sabonis tape. That dude is a clinic. That said, sabonis is 6’11. Passing over the double is much easier for guys like him and Jokic.

Lot of good commentary in this thread.

In today’s NBA, you can’t play an Adams with a Zion as much. Look at how much Brook Lopez opened up the driving lanes for Giannis.
You need space. That’s why Seth Curry has helped non shooting Simmons and Embiid get back in the swing.

My gut is we need to trade Bledsoe. The archetype to get would be a Brogdon of two years ago type. Heady point guard that hit fts. (Won’t get Brogdon but you get the type). shite. Spencer Dinwiddie would’ve been a good fit and the nets might’ve appreciated having a defensive player alongside Kyrie. Maybe the Hornets Devonte Graham. Less stoked about Rozier, but still provides similar things.

The other idea is that if you’re going to pair Zion with a big, the big needs to be able to space the floor. Sacrificing some D, maybe see is David Bertans is avail for that train wreck Wizards team. Or if Wendell Carter Jr is making Markannen avail

Pitches- Lonzo for Caris Levert.
Lonzo for Markannen
Bledsoe for Gallinari
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 9:56 am
Posted by Pelefraan 1
Member since Jan 2018
6706 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 9:51 am to
That's why we needed to target DJ Agustin in the offseason

Lonzo just can't be relied on to handle the ball well in the clutch
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 9:53 am
Posted by LSU Fan 90812
A man more eviler than Skeletor.
Member since Feb 2005
50655 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 9:54 am to
quote:

Lonzo just can't be relied on to handle the ball well in the clutch


But that’s literally his job
Posted by Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
12646 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 9:56 am to
We are 27th in the league in Catch and Shoot FG%, 28th when they are from three(31%), 25th in the league on wide open threes, and from pretty much every space on the arc we are near the bottom of the league as well, no matter the type of shot.

To climb out we are going to need Lonzo to shoot like he has the last couple games the rest of the season, JJ to get out of his slump, and for others to find a groove more nights than not. Whether that is Bledsoe, Melli, or NAW.

We also shoot a surprisingly high number of tightly contested threes, third in the league. Which seems to be driven heavily by Redick and BI. Which one might argue means they need to take better shots, but I think speaks to how poor our spacing is that they feel these are the only two you need to smother to tank our teams shooting.

At the end of the day this is a personnel issue though, and I am not sure either of our current starting guards are the right fit for this team. But they certainly aren’t the right pair to be complimenting the rest of our team if we have actual championship aspirations in the foreseeable future.
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 10:02 am
Posted by LSU Fan 90812
A man more eviler than Skeletor.
Member since Feb 2005
50655 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 9:57 am to
They’d be right.

In a league where even most 5s are shooting 3s, we consistently run out lineups where the 1, 2, 4, 5 are complete non threats to shoot.
Posted by Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
12646 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:18 am to
I’ve said it before but to me the ideal unit around Zion/Bi is a rim protecting stretch 5 with a Reddish/Hunter type 3 and D forward that can guard 2-4, and a Brogdon type 2-way combo guard that can effortlessly run your half court or move off ball as a gravity guy and serve as a reliable outlet for someone like Ingram and Zion to utilize when they are the facilitator, but isn’t going to be ball dominate to the point you take away from Ingram’s(and eventually Zion’s) playmaking abilities.

I think you can make it work with Adams but I think that means that long term you need both of your guards to be good floor spacers and individual playmakers. I wish we had been able to move up to take Halliburton like some rumors suggested, but if Kira can become a Sexton/Garland type hybrid(which I think he can based in his skillset) you can certainly win with that if he hits his potential. And ideally you compliment Adams with someone that can stretch the floor and play defense. I’d like to see us find another Daniel Oturu/Christian Wood type of prospect in the latter part of one of these drafts since money will start getting tight. NAW’s a wildcard that more and more I see as a 6th man, not a full time starter, but he could surprise.
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 10:20 am
Posted by TeddyPadillac
Member since Dec 2010
29610 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:20 am to
quote:

Lonzo for Markannen



I remember talking about this in the offseason and i believe i was against it, but the more i look at it, that right there would be a great move for us.
Markannen doens't even need to start but he'd play starter minutes. That 3 headed monster of Zion/Markannen/Adams would be really good. We really need a 3rd big that will play 25+ minutes a night, and he needs to be a good shooter. Lauri has been off to a hot start this year.
Right now, the Pelicans would be better off with a big that can shoot instead of Bledsoe/Lonzo/Redick. One of them needs to go.

I'm always farting around with the trade machine. The Nets would love Bledsoe, and so would the Clippers.
I know this would never happen, but:
Lonzo, Brooklyn 2021 1st, Tyler Johnson to Hornets
Bledsoe to Brooklyn
Taurean Prince, Devonte Graham, PJ Washington, Charlotte 2022 1st to Pels.
We'd get away from the tax safely, Brooklyn would get rid of two players so they can use their DPE to bring someone else in to replace Dinwiddie, and the Hornets get to pair the Balls together. If Lonzo is set to get a 4/100 deal, then he's worth that.
Posted by shel311
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
112572 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:20 am to
quote:

Z is hellbent and focused on fighting through 2-3 guys and never looks to the perimeter. We don’t have the sharpest of shooter but I feel like we’ve shot a high % on open threes - and guys are open out there when Zion has the ball in the post
Yea, for as much attention as he gets, it's a bit disappointing(but super early) that he averages only 1 assist per game at this point.

Posted by shel311
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
112572 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:22 am to
quote:

In today’s NBA, you can’t play an Adams with a Zion as much.
I just fear that we can't unlock a fully powered Zion with Adams alongside him.

The current roster makeup is just not really good for Zion, and I think we need to be building around him.

Posted by shel311
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
112572 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:25 am to
quote:

I feel like this may have been mentioned this offseason.
It was mentioned when we added Steven Adams, but those who mentioned the spacing issues were attacked pretty good.
Posted by LSU Fan 90812
A man more eviler than Skeletor.
Member since Feb 2005
50655 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:28 am to
I’m not against Adams. The archetype for this is outdated but it’s Griffin/Jordan. It’s nog bad to have an enforcer there when you have a guy jumping as much as Zion.

But those minutes are gonna need to be staggered greatly, and as Bronc said, y all need mucho flexibility on the perimeter.

Another move might be Bledsoe and a pick for Oladipo.
Posted by shel311
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
112572 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:29 am to
quote:

I did the math in a thread before the season and you need like a 46% 3 point shooter to be the same threat Zion is at the rim
Do you have that handy to post again?

Trying to figure out how that number was derived. For his career, it looks like he's shooting somewhere around 65% at the rim, but that factors in all the easy uncontested shots as well. Obviously his efficiency when facing a wall of 3 defenders would go down pretty drastically.

On the flip side, you mentioned a 46% 3pt shooter, but that's just overall. There's catch and shoot vs open/contested.

I'm just curious on those numbers as I'd assume any 3pt shooter who shoots, say, 38% or so with some amount of volume would be a much more efficient shot shooting a wide open catch and shoot 3 as opposed to Zion trying to score over 3 defenders.
Posted by LSU Fan 90812
A man more eviler than Skeletor.
Member since Feb 2005
50655 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:30 am to
Look I don’t think Adams is bad in a vacuum. And in a young locker room you need old glue guys. But if you’re going to have him out there you need lights out shooting surrounding him and Zion, or exactly what’s happening would happen.

I think if you lose Bledsoe and replace with a shooter, you have enough.

I’d also trade Adams too but I don’t think anyone but presti wants him at that number
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 10:43 am
Posted by supe12sta12z
Tiger Town
Member since Apr 2012
12754 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:30 am to
We stagger Zion with spacers when he comes in at the 5. The problem is Redick and Melli are useless right now. Our bench on paper should be doing a lot of damage with Zion at the 5. We're at a point where Melli is unplayable so we are now going to a Zion/Hayes lineup with the bench. Guys just aren't hitting shots that they should be hitting.
Posted by shel311
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
112572 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:30 am to
quote:

But those minutes are gonna need to be staggered greatly,
This

But if both dudes are starting the game, starting the 3rd, and finishing while playing 32mpg, they won't be staggered very much.

Adams is one of the most enjoyable dudes to watch and love having him on the team, but it's pretty clear we can't unlock the full potential of Zion with Adams at the 5, and that's a pretty big concern IMO.
Posted by Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
12646 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:31 am to
I would love to add Marakannen but I don’t think

1) The Bulls have any interest in trading him.

2.) He will likely cost in the 17 to 20+ million range to extend, and I don’t think we would be wise to follow the Demps model of tying so much salary up in two positions, one of which would be coming off the bench, and positions that are increasingly cheaper to fill and are less critical to winning than guard and small forward.

I’d much rather find another 3/4 that can guard up and down a position.
Posted by LSU Fan 90812
A man more eviler than Skeletor.
Member since Feb 2005
50655 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:31 am to
I don’t think those numbers bear out. An upper 30s shooter would make worlds difference
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
62446 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:38 am to
quote:

NAW’s a wildcard that more and more I see as a 6th man, not a full time starter, but he could surprise.


I can live with that. Imagine if Melli were a reliable stretch 4/5 and NAW were 2 years more developed. The need to upgrade Bledsoe/Adams/Lonzo isn't as immediate if you have reliable players with different skill sets coming off the bench that Stan actually trusts enough to play.
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 10:39 am
Posted by supe12sta12z
Tiger Town
Member since Apr 2012
12754 posts
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:44 am to
They don't need to upgrade Adams. They need a complimentary piece that's reliable unlike Melli. Kira in the starting line up and NAW as a 6th man type of scorer off the bench would solve some of the issues. They need to go into the offseason targeting a long stretch big who can actually hit shots at a relatively high level to solve the spacing issues to close the games. Ingram would benefit from having more space to work with down the stretch.
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