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Message
re: Omer Asik ain't pretty but
Posted on 12/6/14 at 4:31 pm to brmark70816
Posted on 12/6/14 at 4:31 pm to brmark70816
You've watched Asik play 13 games. I've seen him play for 2 years. And the stats I post support what I already know from watching every game he played for the Rockets.
The stats I posted were to help you see through numbers what your eyes are obviously missing.
You can dismiss the stats all you want and only look at the box score, but just know that you sound like a flat-earther to people who know basketball.
NBA teams don't have entire analytics departments for no reason.
The stats I posted were to help you see through numbers what your eyes are obviously missing.
You can dismiss the stats all you want and only look at the box score, but just know that you sound like a flat-earther to people who know basketball.
NBA teams don't have entire analytics departments for no reason.
4
Posted on 12/6/14 at 4:32 pm to PrimeTime Money
the overreaction on this board from game-to-game is great 
Posted on 12/6/14 at 4:36 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:I got a buddy like that. he won't watch the games but i'll get texts hating on those that don't have great box score numbers.
You can dismiss the stats all you want and only look at the box score, but just know that you sound like a flat-earther to people who know basketball.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 4:42 pm to Fearthehat0307
My dad is like that. He doesn't watch the games, he'll just regurgitate what he hears the guys talking about on the radio.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 4:43 pm to brmark70816
quote:
But the way you, I and many others analyze performance is different. You are more comfortable looking at analytics and efficiency. You believe that those give you a deeper view into the intricacies of the game. I get it. I don't look at it the same way. I believe that sucks the fun out of the game and I don't want to apply higher math to know who a good player is. In my mind, I should just be able to watch and tell. Also, while valuable, I don't think that stats capture everything. There are nuances that have a great effect that just can't be gauged.
That's all fair. Nowhere does it say we have to agree or enjoy the game the same way. I will say that I like the numbers because I believe they do a better job of gauging some of those more difficult nuances or giving context to broader questions. They aren't perfect and they aren't a substitute for watching, but I personally find value in them.
quote:
Do you think that is sustainable long term?
That's a fair question. Finding a good, 2 way center is nearly impossible. There are about 4 I can think of. Rules changes have effectively killed the old school, post up offense. Off the top of my head, the Clippers, Blazers, Warriors, Spurs, and Mavs get by fine without much offense from their centers. The Pacers with a healthy George did too.
I think as long as they are adamant that Davis will not be playing a rim protecting role, then they need a guy like Asik. Would I like to see Davis with Gasol or Al Horford? Absolutely. Would I prefer not to pay him $10-12M/year? Yep. But a proven defensive minded guy like Asik is the best they will likely do and that will be the going rate. And the numbers (I know) bear out that the original starting 5 both scored and defended at top 4 rate.
Part of the problem is just how fricking ugly the offense is in general. It is actually effective on the whole, but it will never win style points. It's hard to wrap my head around how bad they look at times with how well they usually perform.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 4:51 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
You've watched Asik play 13 games. I've seen him play for 2 years. And the stats I post support what I already know from watching every game he played for the Rockets.
Dude, I'm going to say this as kindly as I can, so don't be offended. I don't give a crap about the Rockets. Not in the least bit. I hate your team and hope they turn into the biggest shite show in the league. All that being said, you don't have some kind of secret knowledge about the guy. I've watched him for 4 seasons and basketball for 40 years. I have seen all the stats and numbers you keep shoving out there before. They aren't that impressive. I'll keep saying it. He only plays one side of the court. He better be great there, cause if not then he just has no value whatsoever.
quote:
You can dismiss the stats all you want and only look at the box score, but just know that you sound like a flat-earther to people who know basketball. NBA teams don't have entire analytics departments for no reason.
I have entertained your point of view and I think I have been receptive to what you say. But you have never given me any of the same courtesy. You have dismissed it, cause you figure you have seen more or just have a better understanding. But you don't. Unless I'm totally wrong, you are just an everyday basketball fan like me. You aren't a scout for a team and don't deal with these numbers professionally. I'm not either. I have admitted as much very often. If you think that makes me less of a fan or unable to understand performance then that something you'll have to deal with.
I'm glad you came back to this thread though and defended your guy. Obviously you have very strong feelings for him. I don't and will never understand them. But kudos to you. I'm going to be honest though and just give you a heads up. I'm going to keep bashing on him. Unless he suddenly turns into a defensive God like Ben Wallace or Bill Russell or learns how to catch. I want my team to get better and my superstar deserves more support.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 4:59 pm to brmark70816
I wish you weren't a Pelicans fan
Posted on 12/6/14 at 5:17 pm to brmark70816
quote:lol... the only reason I bring up the Rockets is because that's the last team he played for. And I've watched him play a lot because that's the team I follow.
Dude, I'm going to say this as kindly as I can, so don't be offended. I don't give a crap about the Rockets. Not in the least bit. I hate your team and hope they turn into the biggest shite show in the league. All that being said, you don't have some kind of secret knowledge about the guy. I've watched him for 4 seasons and basketball for 40 years. I have seen all the stats and numbers you keep shoving out there before. They aren't that impressive. I'll keep saying it. He only plays one side of the court. He better be great there, cause if not then he just has no value whatsoever.
And I can guarantee you haven't watched many of his games over his 4 seasons.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 5:29 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
And I can guarantee you haven't watched many of his games over his 4 seasons.
Why? Cause I haven't started to worship him yet? Look we all have blinders about certain players, guys we like for whatever reason. For a long time, my favorite player in the league was Matt Harpring. He was dity, mean, could shoot, handle and was white. I just thought that guy was awesome and no one could tell me any different. So I get liking a player. I'm just telling you, you haven't swayed me a bit. I'm enjoying this thread though..
Posted on 12/6/14 at 5:41 pm to brmark70816
quote:Because you are one of the few people who watch basketball who hold the opinion you do.
Why? Cause I haven't started to worship him yet?
It's not like I'm talking up Greg Stiemsma.
Scouts, GMs, and in-tune fans all know the value of Asik.
Casual fans look at his box score numbers and say man, this guy sucks! But that's because they don't know what they are talking about.
I'll admit that when the Rockets signed Asik, I didn't know much about him. I browsed his stats and was skeptical about how much a defense-only back-up center could help the team. But then after watching him play for a season, I completely understand how the team benefits from such a player.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 5:53 pm to corndeaux
quote:
I will say that I like the numbers because I believe they do a better job of gauging some of those more difficult nuances or giving context to broader questions. They aren't perfect and they aren't a substitute for watching, but I personally find value in them.
Of course there is value to them, especially when used in the proper context. I just don't watch basketball through that prism. There are many that don't, even people that are involved in the sport every day. Larry Brown has flat out said advanced analytics have no place in the sport. Charles Barkley has mocked them. Bobby Knight too.
The biggest advocate of their use is Morey in Houston (surprise surprise). Who basically abandoned their tenants when he just started going after superstars instead. His protégé is now being openly ridiculed cause he has torn down everything in Philly and has probably constructed the worst team in NBA history.
quote:
Finding a good, 2 way center is nearly impossible.
So true. That's why I get the need for Asik. But I think it could be covered by other avenues (cheap, physical journeymen like D. Blair). It's just made more difficult, when you factor in Anderson's role and getting him minutes as well. I really like the 3 man rotation in Davis/Anderson/Asik but it's very limited and it would be dependent on Davis playing all the time (Anderson and Asik get torched). It will probably come down to choosing in-between Anderson and Asik. I tend to go with Anderson in that situation. But I like offense..
quote:
Part of the problem is just how fricking ugly the offense is in general. It is actually effective on the whole, but it will never win style points. It's hard to wrap my head around how bad they look at times with how well they usually perform.
Amen. I wish they would try something new, like your earlier proposal. It's bad team construction and some bad rotations. But the team just isn't deep enough. Lots of work to be done..
Posted on 12/6/14 at 5:54 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
You can dismiss the stats all you want and only look at the box score, but just know that you sound like a flat-earther to people who know basketball.
The guys whole argument is that regardless of what the stats say, he doesn't like what he sees on the floor, and now you argue he isn't even watching the games.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 6:25 pm to brmark70816
Holy shite brmark, you are really really stupid. By your logic, Dwight Howard is the 24th best free throw shooter in the NBA. Damian Lilliard should ask him to teach him how to shoot free throws better. Because points per possession is no more advanced of a stat than free throw %. Its just points divided by opportunities.
This is just unbelievable that you expect anybody to respect your opinion as you derail a discussion of people with brains trying to discuss Points Per Possession.
This is just unbelievable that you expect anybody to respect your opinion as you derail a discussion of people with brains trying to discuss Points Per Possession.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 6:27 pm to OceanMan
quote:
The guys whole argument is that regardless of what the stats say, he doesn't like what he sees on the floor, and now you argue he isn't even watching the games.
bullshite. This guy brought up non-pace adjusted statistics like a total arse-clown. Nobody is trying to bully him into shutting up about his stupid opinions by using advanced statistics. He just tried to prove a point using an incredibly irrelevant statistic and is being corrected. But he's too stupid to even understand so now he's just derailing the thread.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 6:33 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Because you are one of the few people who watch basketball who hold the opinion you do.
No. I'm not. Most people that watch basketball have no idea who Asik is. They think he is white stiff and probably from Russia. He doesn't have a huge name or reputation, no matter his grand accomplishments with the Rockets.
quote:
Scouts, GMs, and in-tune fans all know the value of Asik.
I could do this all day. He was on the trade block for a year. No one was chasing after him. The only team that even made you an offer were the Celtics. Here is the section from when B. Simmons talked about Asik (and Lin) in his worst contracts in the NBA column earlier this year ..
"Hey, guys – only six hours until my deadline to deal Asik expires. He counts for $8.3 million on the cap this year and next, but earns $5 million this season and $15 million next. It’s not as bad as it sounds! LOL. Ask your token stats guy in your front office that you hired only because your owner badgered you about hiring an advanced metrics guy — Asik’s value transcends statistics because of his interior defense and his rebounding. He’s also a terrific teammate, please don’t read anything into what happened recently when Omer quit on our team. Totally overblown! Who doesn’t get frustrated at work from time to time? Plus, you know how those guys from Turkey get — they take stuff personally! Just pay-per-view Taken 2 if you don’t believe me. I still believe Omer is an asset. Anyway, none of you emailed me back yet — we’re only looking for multiple first-rounders and a quality starter for him, that’s it. Lemme know, thanks!"
Is B. Simmons in-tune?
quote:
But then after watching him play for a season, I completely understand how the team benefits from such a player.
I know, I know. He bailed your team out. I have no idea how this helps the Pelicans or makes us a better team. You keep skipping over that part. You just figure he has to fit with our team, although he didn't fit with yours. Btw, why is that?
Posted on 12/6/14 at 6:40 pm to OceanMan
quote:That's not true. He's been bashing Asik since the Pelicans traded for him based solely on his box score stats.
The guys whole argument is that regardless of what the stats say, he doesn't like what he sees on the floor, and now you argue he isn't even watching the games.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 6:50 pm to TheSexecutioner
quote:
bullshite. This guy brought up non-pace adjusted statistics like a total arse-clown. Nobody is trying to bully him into shutting up about his stupid opinions by using advanced statistics. He just tried to prove a point using an incredibly irrelevant statistic and is being corrected. But he's too stupid to even understand so now he's just derailing the thread.
This is just too funny. I have backed up everything I have said this thread, which is basically me and a Houston fan going back and forth. It has never gotten personal and I'm thinking there is a lot of good back and forth. But you get offended and decide to attack me for some unknown reason. Did I rebuke one of your friends on here? He called you for back up?
Careful with how you respond. I'm not one of the most experienced posters on here. But I know I can't attack people for no reason..
Posted on 12/6/14 at 6:58 pm to brmark70816
So answer my point about Dwight. Do you think he's a good free throw shooter? Whats the difference between looking at Free Throws made as the mark of a good free throw shooter versus PPG as the mark of a good offense?
Look, you are entitled to your opinion about Asik or whatever. But you brought up stats and then you are being ridiculous about it. If you think advanced stats(when ppl talk about advanced stats they usually aren't talking about pace adjustments) make the game more boring, fine. You can just sit out the stats discussion. But you are the one actually bringing up the stats. And its just absolutely ridiculous to judge defense or offense without making a pace adjustment.
Look, you are entitled to your opinion about Asik or whatever. But you brought up stats and then you are being ridiculous about it. If you think advanced stats(when ppl talk about advanced stats they usually aren't talking about pace adjustments) make the game more boring, fine. You can just sit out the stats discussion. But you are the one actually bringing up the stats. And its just absolutely ridiculous to judge defense or offense without making a pace adjustment.
This post was edited on 12/6/14 at 6:59 pm
Posted on 12/6/14 at 7:06 pm to TheSexecutioner
quote:
bullshite. This guy brought up non-pace adjusted statistics like a total arse-clown.
His quote from earlier in the thread:
quote:
But the way you, I and many others analyze performance is different. You are more comfortable looking at analytics and efficiency. You believe that those give you a deeper view into the intricacies of the game. I get it. I don't look at it the same way. I believe that sucks the fun out of the game and I don't want to apply higher math to know who a good player is. In my mind, I should just be able to watch and tell
I see this as completely fair.
Posted on 12/6/14 at 7:11 pm to TheSexecutioner
quote:
Whats the difference between looking at Free Throws made as the mark of a good free throw shooter versus PPG as the mark of a good offense?
Umm, PPG is normalized over a game, while FTM is normalized over nothing. This isn't a good example to use to accomplish what you are trying to.
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