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Message
re: Objectively, should we be 1-10?
Posted on 11/9/21 at 3:06 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
Posted on 11/9/21 at 3:06 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
quote:
I just don’t get the expectation. What are you possibly expecting the return to be this early in the rebuild? I mean, this ENTIRE ORGANIZATION was rebuilt from top to bottom. You expect every move to be perfect?
I stated my expectations 2 years ago.
I expected to be a playoff contender this year, year 6 of your maxed out BI and year 3 of Zion. I expected to win 50 games next year. I stated multiple times that this past offseason was going to be the most important one in our history, and i said that 2 years ago, and we failed miserably at it.
We've done little on the trade market, even though i have always like Val.
We've done nothing with the #4 and #13 pick.
We aren't in the same rebuild boat as OKC or Houston, yet we look the same.
We are in the same boat as Minny, who should be better as well, and should have the same expectations to be a playoff contender this year, and a 50 win team next year, that's if KAT is truly a superstar, which i doubt he is, just like a doubt BI is. They both need someone better to make their team get to that next level. Minny is still young, and if Edwards turns into a star, then they should be set for a while with Edwards/Kat/Russell. key word, should.
quote:
We couldn’t even pull a 2nd or 3rd tier FA this offseason yet
We didn't even try. And why does everyone only bring this up? no we aren't going to sign a big name FA more than likely, but that doesn't mean we can't trade for one.
quote:
So guess what, it’s build through the draft
Certainly haven't been successful at that, and our window to build through it should have been gone by now b/c we should be a playoff contender right now.
quote:
I’m perfectly fine with Griffin not pushing all the chips to the middle of the table yet as far as big trades.
the problem is he's already used up the most valuable chips, and we have diddly poo to show for it.
Our #4 pick, Jaxson and NAW, couldn't even fetch us a 1st right now. They are just young throw in players in a trade.
Our #13 is just a salary filler in a trade at best and would bring back nothing.
Lonzo left for nothing, you could almost say he cost a 1st b/c that's what we should have gotten back.
Hart will leave for 2 2nds at best. If he was worth trading for Buddy, we would have done that already, but the Kings probably want more than just Hart, and our idiot GM has no idea when he should use assets and when he shouldn't.
quote:
By this trade deadline or offseason if you feel like you have a good move to make,
What do we have to trade?
We can't trade our young assets b/c they aren't worth anything. Maybe Hayes is someone who is wanted, maybe the Raptors would be interested in NAW, but neither are good assets.
We can't trade our '22 1st, b/c we don't have either ours or the Lakers pick. B/c we don't have those picks (even though we'll likely get our own top 14 protected pick back), we also can't trade our '23 pick at the deadline.
At the trade deadline, this is our best package:
Trey/Jaxson/'24 1st/'25 first/'26 first/Hart/NAW/Sato
Who you getting with that? There isn't a single asset on that list that pops out to any team looking to rebuild. You aren't getting Lillard with that. You can get McCollum though, assuming Portland is blowing it up and not trading McCollum to improve for Lillard b/c we cant' help them improve this year.
all we have assets for is a second tier player, and i don't say that as a negative, b/c that's what we should be doing.
quote:
You’re gonna be pissed off on a nightly basis if you can’t just accept those simple facts.
You're right i'm gonna be pissed off, but it's not for any of the reasons you stated. It's b/c we have squandered what looked like a sure fire can't frick up trove of assets to build around a once in a generation talent that already had another all-star to play with in BI.
There's no excuse other than Griffin sucks at his job as to why we are sitting at 1-10 right now, and our future doesn't even look all that great anymore.
1
Posted on 11/9/21 at 3:07 pm to brmark70816
Hawks maybe willing to move Bogie to clear up some cap for next year so they're not deep in the tax.
Pacers: Levert, Turner, Warren would be candidates
Magic: Ross or Fultz
Jazz: Ingles, Clarkson, Bogi
Grizzlies: Brooks
Blazers: Powell, Covington, Nurkic, Nance if they blow it up
Wolves: Beasley, Beverly, Prince
Spurs: Pretty much anyone
Rockets: Gordon, Wood, Theis
Looking at teams and salaries, that looks to be the candidates that fit into the TPE that are gettable.
Pacers: Levert, Turner, Warren would be candidates
Magic: Ross or Fultz
Jazz: Ingles, Clarkson, Bogi
Grizzlies: Brooks
Blazers: Powell, Covington, Nurkic, Nance if they blow it up
Wolves: Beasley, Beverly, Prince
Spurs: Pretty much anyone
Rockets: Gordon, Wood, Theis
Looking at teams and salaries, that looks to be the candidates that fit into the TPE that are gettable.
This post was edited on 11/9/21 at 3:09 pm
Posted on 11/9/21 at 3:19 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
We aren't in the same rebuild boat as OKC or Houston,yet we look the same.
When did they lose their best 2 players that are all stars?
quote:
We didn't even try.
We were linked to every single free agent out there, how can you say they didn't try? CP3, Lowry, Dinwiddie, THJ, the list goes on and on of players they were trying to sway here in FA.
quote:
Our #4 pick, Jaxson and NAW, couldn't even fetch us a 1st right now.They are just young throw in players in a trade.
Our #13 is just a salary filler in a trade at best and would bring back nothing.
Lonzo left for nothing, you could almost say he cost a 1st b/c that's what we should have gotten back.
This is just flat out wrong.
quote:
We can't trade our '22 1st, b/c we don't have either ours or the Lakers pick.
Yes we can trade them, we can add language that if the pick doesn't convey to Charlotte, then the team we're trading with gets it, otherwise they get the next available pick, which would be 23. That would be more valuable than anything because teams would have to feel they're getting a lottery pick with how our season started.
quote:
we have squandered what looked like a sure fire can't frick up trove of assets to build around a once in a generation talent that already had another all-star to play with in BI.
Did we frick that up, or did Zion frick that up by being injured and out of shape since being drafted?
Posted on 11/9/21 at 3:23 pm to Soggymoss
The problem with all of that is a Save The Season trade would be dumb this season. You'd have to do a trade for someone who is also a long term piece, like Sexton. But the way Cleveland's been playing, they may not want to trade him anymore.
I do think that the young guys everyone is so down on will look better in different roles when Zion and Ingram are back. That bench unit built around Zion/Kira/Hayes straight up killing other bench units was not a mirage. Zion draws so much attention Kira/Hayes are able to make the most of their elite physical tools. So just like we thought they turned a corner at the end of last season, they can get some of their trade value back before the deadline, assuming Zion is back before then.
I do think that the young guys everyone is so down on will look better in different roles when Zion and Ingram are back. That bench unit built around Zion/Kira/Hayes straight up killing other bench units was not a mirage. Zion draws so much attention Kira/Hayes are able to make the most of their elite physical tools. So just like we thought they turned a corner at the end of last season, they can get some of their trade value back before the deadline, assuming Zion is back before then.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 3:27 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
like Sexton
Has a torn meniscus, he will be out awhile.
quote:This is exactly the problem. Everyone is expecting these guys who's role is to play defense and put up 10 points a night to all of a sudden become 20 ppg first option scorers when they're just not that. They're role players for a reason.
do think that the young guys everyone is so down on will look better in different roles when Zion and Ingram are back.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 4:05 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
When did they lose their best 2 players that are all stars?
What does that have to do with anything?
They are at the beginning of a rebuild. They have tons of assets to trade to build around SGA.
We are in year 3, and we've already wasted plenty of our assets we got in the AD/Jrue trades.
quote:
We were linked to every single free agent out there, how can you say they didn't try? CP3, Lowry, Dinwiddie, THJ, the list goes on and on of players they were trying to sway here in FA.
CP3, unlrealistic
Lowry, unlrealistic,
Dinwiddie, can't shoot
THJ, said he wasn't leaving Dallas.
that's not who we should have been targeting.
You know how this team could have improved after they traded for Val and even after they signed Graham for most of these?
giving the MLE to McDermott.
giving the MLE to Schroder.
giving the MLE to McConnell.
giving the MLE to Cam Payne.
giving the MLE to Patty Mills.
giving the MLE to Kendrick Nunn.
giving the MLE to Bobby Portis.
signing Ish Smith.
signing Bryn Forbes.
Taking a chance on a low contract for Justice Winslow or Zach Collins.
trading 2 2nds for Grayson Allen.
trading for pretty much anyone on Indiana.
trading for Colin Sexton
absorbing Kevin Loves contract once you struck out on everyone.
trading for Buddy or Barnes.
trading for Bagley
trading Bledsoe for Kennard/Beverly instead of wasting a 1st to get rid of him when you didn't need to.
what did we do? nothing. and we go yet another year without a backup 4, and without adding more shooters to the team. Adding Graham was nice, but all he did was replace Lonzo. We didn't actually add anything to this team other than two rookies. It was a pathetic offseason that was a reason enough to fire Griff.
quote:
This is just flat out wrong.
be specific as to what's wrong, b/c it isn't.
quote:
Yes we can trade them, we can add language that if the pick doesn't convey to Charlotte, then the team we're trading with gets it, otherwise they get the next available pick, which would be 23. That would be more valuable than anything because teams would have to feel they're getting a lottery pick with how our season started.
I'm almost certain you cannot include picks like that in a trade that have already been included. You can't assume which way they will convey, you have to treat them as if they will convey, until the season is over and they offically don't.
quote:
Did we frick that up, or did Zion frick that up by being injured and out of shape since being drafted?
i just showed you all the assets we've used/wasted already. we are running out of assets, and time.
This post was edited on 11/9/21 at 4:08 pm
Posted on 11/9/21 at 4:18 pm to TeddyPadillac
Damn, that was awesome and just savage. Well done..
Posted on 11/9/21 at 4:25 pm to TeddyPadillac
Winslow is a waste. cannot shoot. nice skills. dont be tempted.
between injuries and his shooting missing for 3 years dont waste a bench seat.
payne signed for way less than mle. so it was very possible.
allen would have been great for 2 2nds.
between injuries and his shooting missing for 3 years dont waste a bench seat.
payne signed for way less than mle. so it was very possible.
allen would have been great for 2 2nds.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 4:28 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
What does that have to do with anything?
It has everything to do with everything. Literally missing those 2 is the reason for our record.
quote:
They have tons of assets to trade to build around SGA.
I guess we have nothing right?
quote:
You know how this team could have improved after they traded for Val and even after they signed Graham for most of these?
I said the list goes on. We were tied to nearly every single free agent out there. Who's to say they didn't do those things (besides Schroeder because frick him)?
quote:
trading for pretty much anyone on Indiana
Who got traded that I'm missing? Indiana literally is not trading anyone.
quote:
trading for Colin Sexton
Not on the trade block
quote:
trading for Buddy or Barnes.
trading for Bagley
Did I miss where they were traded?
quote:
trading Bledsoe for Kennard/Beverly instead of wasting a 1st to get rid of him when you didn't need to.
Clippers traded Kennard? Who's to say they offered Beverly to us before we agreed to trade with Memphis?
quote:
what did we do? nothing.
Val and Graham are not nothing. Temple has came in after a slow start and played great, as a role player, like the kind we need around Fluffy.
quote:
I'm almost certain you cannot include picks like that in a trade that have already been included
You can, you just have to include the language.
quote:
just showed you all the assets we've used/wasted already. we are running out of assets, and time
We're really not, you're just overreacting.
quote:
be specific as to what's wrong, b/c it isn't
All 3 players would fetch a first round pick, albeit protected. Lonzo didn't leave and cost us a first, we were never getting a first back for him, if we were it would have been offered at the trade deadline (it wasnt)
This post was edited on 11/9/21 at 4:31 pm
Posted on 11/9/21 at 4:50 pm to Soggymoss
I honestly don’t know why half the people on this board are here because all they do is skyscream about how miserable it is.
You finally have the right guy at coach. Your superstar has been on the floor not even half of the time he’s been here so far. You have a max player in Ingram who’s continued to put up 25/5/5 every night. You have a top 10 C locked up for 3 years. You have tons of drafted talent youre working on developing. Graham is a showing he’s worth his deal. You still have a number of picks and the trade exception to improve the team.
Frankly it’s annoying as frick how incredibly whiny this fanbase can fricking be.
You finally have the right guy at coach. Your superstar has been on the floor not even half of the time he’s been here so far. You have a max player in Ingram who’s continued to put up 25/5/5 every night. You have a top 10 C locked up for 3 years. You have tons of drafted talent youre working on developing. Graham is a showing he’s worth his deal. You still have a number of picks and the trade exception to improve the team.
Frankly it’s annoying as frick how incredibly whiny this fanbase can fricking be.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 4:53 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
Dude, it's ridiculous. All these people need to stop blaming the team for their shitty unrealistic expectations.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 4:54 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
1-10
Posted on 11/9/21 at 4:55 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
It has everything to do with everything. Literally missing those 2 is the reason for our record.
my man.
we are not in the same part of the rebuild as OKC and Houston are.
What part of that aren't you understanding?
Neither of them have a 6 year man in BI that's made an all-star, or Zion. Even with them healthy, we aren't above .500, and that's whats pathetic.
quote:
I guess we have nothing right?
Not as much as them. We used to, and we've got nothing to show for it so far.
quote:
Who got traded that I'm missing? Indiana literally is not trading anyone.
quote:
Not on the trade block
quote:
Did I miss where they were traded?
Everyone is always on the trade block. We simply didn't want to give up what they were asking.
quote:
Val and Graham are not nothing. Temple has came in after a slow start and played great, as a role player, like the kind we need around Fluffy.
Val replaced Adams. And yes he's an upgrade, but we didn't really add anything here. we replaced. When BI and Zion come back, Val isn't taking double digit shots, and if we were built right, he'd never take more than maybe 5, outside of put backs.
Graham replaced Lonzo.
Do you see how we didn't really add anything, which was my point, and all we did was replaced?
and i liked adding Temple, and i don't care what he does on the court. That's not why he's on this team.
quote:
You can, you just have to include the language.
I don't think so, but i'm not CBA expert.
quote:
No Member may sell its rights to select a player in the first round of any NBA Draft for cash or its equivalent, or trade or exchange its right to select a player in the first round of any NBA Draft if the result of such trade or exchange may be to leave the Member without first-round picks in any two (2) consecutive future NBA Drafts.”
The single most important word in the Stepien rule comes shortly before that: “may.” It matters most because it frames the entire ending of the rule in an extremely important way. “if the result of such trade or exchange may be to leave the Member without first-round picks in any two (2) consecutive future NBA Drafts” means that any scenario where a team can be without first rounders in two straight drafts violates the rule without any consideration about whether that specific series of events is likely or not.
The NBA has developed a complicated system of pick protection and the entire structure depends on that “may” because general managers have to structure their obligations more deliberately.
For example, the aforementioned 2019 first round pick Cleveland traded to Atlanta for Kyle Korver has top-10 protection for 2019 and 2020. The Stepien rule makes zero distinction for whether that pick is likely to convey in either season due to the Cavs’ roster or season expectations, so Cleveland’s front office had to navigate around it when structuring protection on the pick they sent to the Lakers a year later. Sam Presti of the Thunder has faced challenges due to a heavily-protected pick he sent to Philadelphia for Jerami Grant back in 2016 because it shifts alongside their existing obligation for the 2018 Draft that originated in the Enes Kanter trade. That single word requires front offices to cross their t’s and dot their i’s in truly remarkable ways while also making the system sustainable and resilient.
In total, the Stepien rule prevents NBA teams from making any transaction that could leave them without any first-round picks in any two consecutive future drafts in any scenario for any reason.
quote:
We're really not, you're just overreacting.
So you think we have enough trade assets right now to get anyone in the league?
I showed you what our best offer is, and that isnt' getting a superstar anymore. But we without a doubt have enough to get two really good players.
quote:
All 3 players would fetch a first round pick, albeit protected
Maybe Hayes.
NAW is not fetching a 1st, not even a late 1st.
Kira sure as hell ain't fetching a 1st.
what are you smoking?
quote:
Lonzo didn't leave and cost us a first, we were never getting a first back for him,
If Graham cost a 1st, then Lonzo should have.
We helped the Bulls out A LOT by taking back Sato. The DeRozan trade doesn't happen without us being nice and taking back their trash for a 2nd round pick, while not matching the RFA. We had all the leverage, Griff is an idiot.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 4:59 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
quote:
You finally have the right guy at coach. Your superstar has been on the floor not even half of the time he’s been here so far. You have a max player in Ingram who’s continued to put up 25/5/5 every night. You have a top 10 C locked up for 3 years. You have tons of drafted talent youre working on developing. Graham is a showing he’s worth his deal. You still have a number of picks and the trade exception to improve the team.
don't disagree with any of it, and i know we still have a bright future.
I just want to get a front office man that won't frick it up any more than the one we currently have already has. Despite all the shite moves he has made, we are still in a promising position for the future.
I'm sorry for my negativity. It's all aimed at Griff, not these players, and not this coach. I just didn't expect to be watching the lottery again waiting for one more year to be a relevant nba playoff team. That's not what the expectation should have been, and it's irritating.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 5:03 pm to Fun Bunch
Objectively yes.
See definition of word objectively.
See definition of word objectively.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 5:58 pm to Fun Bunch
Atlanta, SAC, and Phx were all winnable games. Continuation of last year where they shoot themselves in the foot with turnovers. Actually, they have gotten a little better with the turnovers, by necessity due to lack of talent on the floor, the last few outings. Maybe WG is saying I have to fix this first. It be a good start.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 6:23 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Or should you have enough talent on a roster at this point to at least win 2-4 games?
There are 3 players that play a lot for us on this team that are absolutely not nba roster worthy.
Kira
NAW
Naji
You trot out those dudes at their minutes this year and you're gonna lose a lot. But here's the thing. It's really hard to have a roster with solid depth unless you have a team in California. Small market teams have big issues when their star player is out, let alone their top 2 guys.
And that brings me to my final point. None of what I just said excuses Griffin. He had Kira, NAW, and Naji all on the team last year, all playing minutes. NAW is somewhat forgivable for thinking he could slide in and be the 5th guy based off of last year's play, but Kira and Naji have no business playing in a game unless it's a blowout.
So in the context of having proper talent yes we should have a better record of 1-10, but maybe 1 to 2 wins more at best.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 6:59 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I'm sorry for my negativity. It's all aimed at Griff, not these players, and not this coach. I just didn't expect to be watching the lottery again waiting for one more year to be a relevant nba playoff team. That's not what the expectation should have been, and it's irritating.
I don’t know what Griffin has to do with Zion playing half the games since he’s been here.
I know there’s so much vitriol towards Griffin. And his disingenuous-ness toward providing team updates infuriates me more than anyone. But everyone seems to have the answers on what we should have done. I mean that’s so easy to say. I personally love his mantra of sustainable success and building through his two stars and the draft. That’s how you win in New Orleans IMO. I know it’s frustrating but if the foundation never gets set correctly, the house isn’t ever gonna go up. Let these guys develop man. I look on the floor sometimes and see all 3rd year and under players. This is a such a young team missing so much scoring power.
I feel like the term “a watched pot never boils” fits pretty well. There’s so much CONSTANT noise and crap and whining that we can even just enjoy the damn process. Rebuilds suck man. I don’t like it. But if we don’t do it now it’s gonna fall apart sooner than later. Trying the quick fix shite is what Dell got us into.
Posted on 11/9/21 at 7:41 pm to Fun Bunch
We always have injured players. Literally fricking always
Posted on 11/10/21 at 5:04 am to Brettesaurus Rex
How many games have you actually watched?
Because there is a theme I see going on this year, and I won’t call out names, yet, but the people that seem to be sunshine pumping, with one exception, are the people that I NEVER see in any game threads this season(or threads immediately after discussing the game). Never seem to give specifics and weirdly seem to offer takes at odds with what is being seen on the court.
Feels to me we have a not insignificant number of weekend warrior fans that only show up during the day to try and gaslight what the rest of us are actually seeing because we actually watch this team, not just kill time posting about them at work and not watch them.
And more wild, have the goddamn audacity to question our fandom. The ones that are actually watching this team despite it really not deserving it.
Because there is a theme I see going on this year, and I won’t call out names, yet, but the people that seem to be sunshine pumping, with one exception, are the people that I NEVER see in any game threads this season(or threads immediately after discussing the game). Never seem to give specifics and weirdly seem to offer takes at odds with what is being seen on the court.
Feels to me we have a not insignificant number of weekend warrior fans that only show up during the day to try and gaslight what the rest of us are actually seeing because we actually watch this team, not just kill time posting about them at work and not watch them.
And more wild, have the goddamn audacity to question our fandom. The ones that are actually watching this team despite it really not deserving it.
This post was edited on 11/10/21 at 5:12 am
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