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Message
re: Just out of curiosity...on BI...which of the following scenarios would you be happy to do?
Posted on 10/8/24 at 11:14 am to ThePistol
Posted on 10/8/24 at 11:14 am to ThePistol
quote:
We just watched 70 games of Zion and Ingram not working.
Now you're just making shite up. When both of those guys were healthy, we were battling for the 1 seed.
0
Posted on 10/8/24 at 11:19 am to shel311
saying BI is capable of taking more 3's is false?
We'll see. So many of you just want to assume it can't be done. Why do you want BI and the team to fail? 6'8" wings with his skill set don't grow on trees. He's proven before he can shoot more 3's and less mid range shots. It's why he's a 1x all star. Either he gets back to the level and we are better b/c of it, or he doesn't and we will trade him.
Thinking we are a better team if he fails and is traded is silly. That's the not best scenario. It's a scenario, and we can recover from it and still be good, but it's not the best scenario which is him playing like all-star BI.
quote:
If BI doubles his 3 point attempt output, that's all it takes.
Odds of that happening?
We'll see. So many of you just want to assume it can't be done. Why do you want BI and the team to fail? 6'8" wings with his skill set don't grow on trees. He's proven before he can shoot more 3's and less mid range shots. It's why he's a 1x all star. Either he gets back to the level and we are better b/c of it, or he doesn't and we will trade him.
Thinking we are a better team if he fails and is traded is silly. That's the not best scenario. It's a scenario, and we can recover from it and still be good, but it's not the best scenario which is him playing like all-star BI.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 11:34 am to ThePistol
quote:
Brandon Ingram has never averaged more than 6 3pa per game and he has averaged less than 4 3pa per game for the last 3 seasons.
sure, except those 2 years where he averaged over 6 a game.
Jaylen Brown averaged 5.9 3PA this past year by the way.
quote:
We just watched 70 games of Zion and Ingram not working
First of all, they played 55 games together this year. They were 33-22 together, which is a 49 win pace team.
Secondly, Zion was fat and lazy for the first 23 games they played together, where they were 13-10, no help from Zion and his terrible +/- stats to start the year b/c of his abysmal defensive effort and laziness running the floor on offense.
Get your facts straight.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 12:02 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:He's never shot 3s at a rate like Trey, which was the comparison, so it's a logical assumption that he won't do it.
So many of you just want to assume it can't be done
quote:Why are you making shite up like Dan?
Why do you want BI and the team to fail?
Where have I insinuated I wanted BI or the team to fail? You're talking nonsensical now, don't go off the reservation like GOP did.
It just seems like the thing to do now on Pels Talk is just say something and attribute to someone despite that never being said or insinuated then trying to dunk on that person for saying that thing they never said.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 12:04 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:This is rich right about now
Get your facts straight.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 1:07 pm to shel311
quote:
He's never shot 3s at a rate like Trey, which was the comparison, so it's a logical assumption that he won't do it.
Why does BI need to be more like Trey? Why aren't we applying this same logic to Zion? Why doesn't Zion take more 3's? Why can't Trey be more like BI and create off the dribble?
Trey had 14 opportunities to take BI's place this year. He averaged 16/7/3 in those 14 games. Is that the player you're looking for to replace BI?
He's played 71 games in his career without BI, and he's averaged 13/4/2 without him. What makes you think Trey will all of a sudden take BI's place and outperform him when he's literally never proven that before despite having many chances to?
Trey's comparison, and the person he would take's place in the starting lineup, is CJ, not BI. Murray was brought in to replace BI's production if we were to trade BI.Trey compares to CJ, not BI. Just b/c Trey and BI are similar in size, doesn't mean we should be comparing their games. Trey cannot create his own shot like BI, nor does he facilitate offense in any way that BI does. He's a shooter, and a damn good one. He has a very important role on this team, and it's not a role that compares to what BI does.
quote:
Where have I insinuated I wanted BI or the team to fail?
Why don't you want to see if he can succeed this year? Where has anyone said they want to see BI be better? All anyone says is they don't think he can shoot more 3's, so let's trade him now, or better yet, lets send him home and not let him be a part of the team anymore until he's traded.
And i'm not just talking about you, nor was I when i said that. It's the majority of this board that has insinuates that feeling in regards to BI.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 1:15 pm to shel311
quote:
This is rich right about now
providing actual data instead of made up crap?
I'd prefer when we argue here, we actually use real data instead of what we think the data is based on our opinionated eye test.
And I'll remind you and everyone else once again, that my realistic expectation is that it doesn't work out well to start this year with BI, and he will be traded.
My hope is that he recognized what he needed to do this offseason after realizing no one wants to pay him a max contract, and he performs for us like a max contract guy this year.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 1:45 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Brandon Ingram has never averaged more than 6 3pa per game and he has averaged less than 4 3pa per game
He doesn't even really need 6+ 3's because he can do other things. But 5-6 is definitely a possibility. Especially when BI, coaches, agents, and all teams know what is on the line.
quote:
Fun fact: BI's best 2 games from 3pt EVER were both this last season..
30min/ 41pts/ 9ast/ 6reb/ 8-11 3pt/ 72%/ 16-21FG
34min/ 28pts/ 10reb/ 10ast/ 7-11/ 63.6%/ 8-19FG
Not only do I think he can do it but he's shown he can. And that's the "most recent" BI we have seen so that kills your bullshite philosophy.
Quote from a few months ago in regards to BI apparently taking a step back and being incapable of shootings 3's.
The argument ended with me explaining what's on the line and pessimists just refusing to accept the possibility.
This post was edited on 10/8/24 at 1:49 pm
Posted on 10/8/24 at 3:00 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
sure, except those 2 years where he averaged over 6 a game.
Uhm... 6.1 and 6.2 is not more than 6 per game. Thanks for saying the exact same thing I did.
quote:
First of all, they played 55 games together this year. They were 33-22 together, which is a 49 win pace team.
They were a 49 win team so they played no worse when they weren't playing together. Not a ringing endorsement to max out the combo.
quote:
Why does BI need to be more like Trey? Why aren't we applying this same logic to Zion? Why doesn't Zion take more 3's? Why can't Trey be more like BI and create off the dribble? Trey had 14 opportunities to take BI's place this year. He averaged 16/7/3 in those 14 games. Is that the player you're looking for to replace BI?
Ingram is not the same level of player as Zion. The organization is building around Zion. They traded a first round pick, a recent lottery pick, and Larry for a player to replace and improve upon and replace BI's production and creation. Trey fills the role as spacer for those two guys. Trey has been more of a positive than BI with Zion, that is just a fact. The roster is incomplete with a gaping hole that has to be addressed. It is a perfectly logical take that for the betterment of the team they take BI's salary and turn that into an above average center.
quote:
And I'll remind you and everyone else once again, that my realistic expectation is that it doesn't work out well to start this year with BI, and he will be traded.
Exactly, so we agree. Because all of the data that we have points to this happening.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 3:08 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
Fun fact: BI's best 2 games from 3pt EVER were both this last season..
30min/ 41pts/ 9ast/ 6reb/ 8-11 3pt/ 72%/ 16-21FG
34min/ 28pts/ 10reb/ 10ast/ 7-11/ 63.6%/ 8-19FG
Why didn't you post the next 5 games after each of those? I'll help you out. Following the 7/11 game he proceeded to go 5/17 on 3's over the next 5 games. That is 29% on 3.4 3fga per game. After the 8/11 game he went 4/17 on 3's over the next 5 games. That is 23.5% on 3.4fga per game.
BI is capable of an outburst game. He has never shown the ability to do it consistently. Most good NBA players are capable of outbursts. They don't get huge contracts because of them. You have to be able to do it consistently and what you posted leaves out 90% of the story.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 3:20 pm to ThePistol
quote:
Why didn't you post the next 5 games after each of those? I'll help you out. Following the 7/11 game he proceeded to go 5/17 on 3's over the next 5 games. That is 29% on 3.4 3fga per game. After the 8/11 game he went 4/17 on 3's over the next 5 games. That is 23.5% on 3.4fga per game.
Because it was from a few months ago and fans were saying he took a step back from 3 when he actually had the best 3pt games of his career.
34 3's per 10 games is a 3.4 average. 26.5%
22 3's per 2 games is an 11 average. 68%
The more 3's BI takes the better he is. Everyone knows this. And yet your argument is simply that it won't happen.
You are trying to argue something that can only be proven after the season starts. We are talking about a realistic possibility of BI's potential. You are essentially just hating.
This post was edited on 10/8/24 at 3:22 pm
Posted on 10/8/24 at 3:25 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
You are trying to argue something that can only be proven after the season starts. We are talking about a realistic possibility of BI's potential. You are essentially just hating.
I am arguing that after 3 years of significant decreases in 3pt attempts when Willie and the team have been stressing to him the importance of taking 3's, I don't care what he does this season as far as extending him. I think it is a fool's game to give that guy a max or near max contract. I am arguing based off of the data of the last 3 seasons, not pie in the sky hopes of what could happen. It isn't hating, it is a logical conclusion after watching the last 3 seasons.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 3:37 pm to ThePistol
quote:
I am arguing based off of the data of the last 3 seasons, not pie in the sky hopes of what could happen
Right and none of those 3 years were contract years where the entire NBA said "we won't pay you because of the 3 years of data where you wouldn't shoot 3's".
Your entire 3 years of data is influencing/ impacting what we get to see from BI this year. You are so caught up in those 3 years that you can't comprehend that fact.
Now if you want to argue that BI might fake it this year and return back to shooting 2's next year then go ahead. But I don't have the brain capacity for that argument.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 4:30 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:Scoring efficiency
Why does BI need to be more like Trey?
quote:Scoring efficiency
Why aren't we applying this same logic to Zion?
quote:He scores efficiently as is.
Why doesn't Zion take more 3's?
quote:I called tot trade him before last season, that is why. If it does not succeed, and it is certainly more likely to not succeed at this point(don't even get how that is up for debate) then we let BI walk for nothing instead of trading him before for a haul, had we done it when many said we should have done it
Why don't you want to see if he can succeed this year?
quote:Where has anyone said they want to see BI take more 3s and shots at the rim and less inefficient middies, is that what you mean?
Where has anyone said they want to see BI be better?
quote:Or for some of us, he doesn't fit, let's trade him 1 year ago. And last season, he did not fit, certainly not as your 2nd best player getting a max extension....again...I don't see how that is even up for debate.
All anyone says is they don't think he can shoot more 3's, so let's trade him now
Posted on 10/8/24 at 4:32 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:No, you factually made "crap" up as you said and attributed it to me. That part, you can't pull that nonsense then in your next post tell someone to get their facts straight. You'll get mocked and laughed at every time you try to do something like that.
providing actual data instead of made up crap?
quote:Me too, not the "why do you want BI to fail" nonsense you tried.
I'd prefer when we argue here, we actually use real data instead of what we think the data is based on our opinionated eye test.
This post was edited on 10/8/24 at 4:32 pm
Posted on 10/8/24 at 4:34 pm to ThePistol
quote:
Uhm... 6.1 and 6.2 is not more than 6 per game. Thanks for saying the exact same thing I did.
I do'nt disagree with the semantics here.
The point is that he's shown he's capable of shooting more 3's, an acceptable number of them, yet everyone here acts as if it's not possible for him to do this again.
quote:
They were a 49 win team so they played no worse when they weren't playing together. Not a ringing endorsement to max out the combo.
Maybe if Captain Fatass would show up to work when the season starts in shape, and takeover the role he's supposed to have on this team as the #1 guy, this combo might look a little different.
I'm sorry but the dude looks fat and lazy yet again to start this year, and his needing 20 games to get in shape comment seems pretty true.
quote:
Trey has been more of a positive than BI with Zion, that is just a fact
If only there were stats that could point some light towards this.
Do you know who Zion shared the worst +/- with on the team for perimeter players (not Larry or JV)?
Jordan Hawkins at -5.2
You know who was next?
CJ McCollum +0.5
BI +1.5
Herb +2.1
Trey +3.2
Dyson +6.8
Naji +9.2
Jose +11.8
Notice how the guys that play defense and hustle to make up for Zion's laziness are who he fits best with?
Do you know what our best 5 man lineup was that played over 30 minutes together all season (by the way there's only 18 combinations that played more than 30 minutes together)
BI/Herb/Zion/Trey/JV at +32.6
and the worst
CJ/Herb/BI/Trey/Zion -22.6
CJ resides in 5 of the worst 7 lineups (the 7 that are negative), and only sits in 1 of the top 4.
CJ's terrible defense, combined with Zion's lazy defense, was a terrible combination this past season.
Herb/Zion/JV with the BI/CJ combo had a -1.1 NetRtg
Herb/Zion/JV with the Trey/CJ combo had a 1.0 NetRtg
Herb/Zion/JV with the BI/Trey combo had a team best 32.6 NetRtg
Sure let's blame BI for all of our troubles b/c he doesn't shoot enough 3's.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 4:43 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:This is also not correct.
He averaged 16/7/3 in those 14 games.
BI was out from 3/22 to 4/12.
From 3/22 to 4/12, Trey averaged17.5/7/3.
He averaged 17.5 points 12.2 shots, uber effiecient.
As a comparison, the previous 14 games BI played before injury, he averaged 18.6ppt on 14.2. Much less efficient.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 4:50 pm to Dantheman504
quote:In 2020 and 2021, BI averaged 6.2 3PA on 38.6% from 3.
Because it was from a few months ago and fans were saying he took a step back from 3
From 2022 to 2024, BI averaged 3.9 3PA on 35.4% from 3.
Why would you push back on anyone saying he took a step back from 3?
Posted on 10/8/24 at 4:53 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:We've also been hearing Willie say BI needs to take more 3s for multiple seasons now and he hasn't.
yet everyone here acts as if it's not possible for him to do this again.
So yea, why would it be some wild take to hope BI is traded over the hope that he'll do something he's known he needed to do and simply hasn't done for 3 years in a row now? That seems like a pretty darn logical take. Even if you don't agree, it's hard to understand how you'd really push back on it like it's some crazy, irrational take.
Posted on 10/8/24 at 4:59 pm to ThePistol
quote:
Uhm... 6.1 and 6.2 is not more than 6 per game
Uhm, you are either being obtuse or retarded.
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