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re: Honest Zion talk for Emotional Intelligent Folks
Posted on 1/17/21 at 3:28 pm to LesGeaux45
Posted on 1/17/21 at 3:28 pm to LesGeaux45
Will he needs to have the talk with his parents and train with professionals off season if his work ethic is legit.
0
Posted on 1/17/21 at 3:33 pm to Bronc
quote:
He’s played 34 games and is on a historical pace.
What the frick were some of you expecting to get out of Zion? All NBA year one?
Stats are great. They’ll get even better as he learns to be a better rebounder and he’ll rack up more steals and blocks as he learns defensive positioning.
But you’re lying to yourself if you think his ceiling is as high today as it was when he was coming out. He’ll need to make a Luka-esque jump next year to restore that ceiling.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 3:38 pm to TotesMcGotes
His ceiling is still best player in the league. That hasn’t changed in 34 games.
But like I said earlier, if you had expectations he would be anything but a really good young player with holes in his game, likely struggling defensively his first couple season, that he would take at least few seasons to add wrinkles to his offensive game and be reliable with them, your expectations were the problem, not the people that aren’t freaking out because they kept their expectations in check.
And given the context of his first 34 games, from covid derived issues to the non-complimentary roster, what he is doing despite that is literally historical.
I made the argument last season, and I stand by it, but was piled on by people in the vain of some in here with insane expectations, that if we truly want to compete now, you trade for Beal to be our alpha, BI our Alpha 2, and ride them as your two offensive anchors as you develop Zion into the player he can be over the following 2-3 seasons, than you do like the Spurs with Kawhi and slowly make it BI and Zion’s team with Beal taking a back seat(or traded off), then eventually it becomes Zion’s clear team several season in. That, or like with AD, you accept that a player like Zion will take time and don’t start chasing the playoffs and selling out a more natural roster development.
Zion is not going to be GOAT over night. He doesn’t have the easily translatable ball dominate skillset guys like Morant, Trae, and Doncic that can result in immediate gratifying offensive output, like AD he comes into the league requiring assistance and shots and situations created for him. But all that potential is still there. And so far, he’s on a career trajectory better than AD and in the wheelhouse of guys like Shaq.
But like I said earlier, if you had expectations he would be anything but a really good young player with holes in his game, likely struggling defensively his first couple season, that he would take at least few seasons to add wrinkles to his offensive game and be reliable with them, your expectations were the problem, not the people that aren’t freaking out because they kept their expectations in check.
And given the context of his first 34 games, from covid derived issues to the non-complimentary roster, what he is doing despite that is literally historical.
I made the argument last season, and I stand by it, but was piled on by people in the vain of some in here with insane expectations, that if we truly want to compete now, you trade for Beal to be our alpha, BI our Alpha 2, and ride them as your two offensive anchors as you develop Zion into the player he can be over the following 2-3 seasons, than you do like the Spurs with Kawhi and slowly make it BI and Zion’s team with Beal taking a back seat(or traded off), then eventually it becomes Zion’s clear team several season in. That, or like with AD, you accept that a player like Zion will take time and don’t start chasing the playoffs and selling out a more natural roster development.
Zion is not going to be GOAT over night. He doesn’t have the easily translatable ball dominate skillset guys like Morant, Trae, and Doncic that can result in immediate gratifying offensive output, like AD he comes into the league requiring assistance and shots and situations created for him. But all that potential is still there. And so far, he’s on a career trajectory better than AD and in the wheelhouse of guys like Shaq.
This post was edited on 1/17/21 at 3:47 pm
Posted on 1/17/21 at 3:50 pm to Bronc
quote:
His ceiling is still best player in the league. That hasn’t changed in 34 games.
In a league that is ruled by perimeter play and guard like skills you’re lying to yourself if you believe this.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 3:55 pm to CP3forMVP
quote:
In a league that is ruled by perimeter play and guard like skills you’re lying to yourself if you believe this.
I didn’t say it was the most realistic ceiling. I said it’s still his ceiling.
I’ve said since day one it will take a lot of things to go right for him to go from top 20 to top 10 to top 3 and to actually be the best player in the league.
But none of that stuff is gone because of his first 34 games. You all are engaging in absurd hysteronics, but it’s par for the course around here.
We win one game and people start furiously jerking each other off about how great this team is, we predictably hit some rough spots and people are declaring Zion a wasted pick. It’s fricking ridiculous
Edit: and remind me, who won the last two MVP’s and what is his natural position and jump shot average?
This post was edited on 1/17/21 at 4:01 pm
Posted on 1/17/21 at 4:04 pm to Bronc
Well obviously he’s not a wasted pick. He’s still a freak and a perennial all star, most likely.
It’s not all or nothing. He can be a great player and simultaneously not be as great as we had hoped or even assumed he would be.
Again, it’s early. He has all kinds of time to develop. I think the point the critics are making are that you’re not really seeing the high end athleticism and motor that he brought with him into the league.
I can deal with the lack of bball IQ. That can be mitigated by reps and scheme. I can deal with mistakes on both sides of the ball. Those are growing pains and everyone is going to have them. But how do you look at his effort, play above the rim, and overall demeanor and think he’s the same guy?
It’s not all or nothing. He can be a great player and simultaneously not be as great as we had hoped or even assumed he would be.
Again, it’s early. He has all kinds of time to develop. I think the point the critics are making are that you’re not really seeing the high end athleticism and motor that he brought with him into the league.
I can deal with the lack of bball IQ. That can be mitigated by reps and scheme. I can deal with mistakes on both sides of the ball. Those are growing pains and everyone is going to have them. But how do you look at his effort, play above the rim, and overall demeanor and think he’s the same guy?
Posted on 1/17/21 at 4:11 pm to TotesMcGotes
quote:
Again, it’s early. He has all kinds of time to develop. I think the point the critics are making are that you’re not really seeing the high end athleticism and motor that he brought with him into the league.
And the counter to that is that often fans mistake a player’s role or acclimation curve into the league as lack of effort or motor. People did the same to AD at times(and as time went on it was a fair criticism in other ways, but not in the ways people often accused him of). The athleticism/diet thing is somewhat fair, but also intentionally devoid of context. Guy came into the league and got injured, than Covid happens and all the sort of resources he would normally have afforded to him are gone. Then you have a super condensed off-season with restrictions still in place(we saw this affecting several big name players: Doncic, Harden). Yet everyone acknowledged Zion looked to have improve his weight despite all that working against him. If by next year he’s still struggling with weight, I’ll get more concerned.
On the court he is being smothered on offense without reliable outlets and being asked to anchor a defensive system. That is much harder to translate and acclimate to than someone that’s core competency coming into the league is dribble drive skills and passing and has most of their deficiencies covered up or looked past, like a Ja, Trae, or Doncic.
Which some of us warned about with Zion. He has freakish raw strength and certain skills, but he needs a lot of work to refine his game. If he can do so he can be an MVP level player, but it requires a lot to go right and for him to not hit any major blockages in developing parts of his game
This post was edited on 1/17/21 at 4:18 pm
Posted on 1/17/21 at 4:22 pm to Bronc
If I could voice my biggest issue with Zion (and the biggest reason I don’t have the same ceiling for him as I once did): I honestly can’t remember the last time I saw him sprint. That’s not scheme, teammates, skills. It’s literally effort.
Maybe there’s something leftover from the injury. Maybe he’s still gun shy with pushing his body. But for Griff to tell us that Zion dominated the conditioning test and for JJ to tell us that Zion came into camp looking a certain way, and then to see him not have that? There’s a problem there.
Maybe there’s something leftover from the injury. Maybe he’s still gun shy with pushing his body. But for Griff to tell us that Zion dominated the conditioning test and for JJ to tell us that Zion came into camp looking a certain way, and then to see him not have that? There’s a problem there.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 5:44 pm to TotesMcGotes
Griff and the staff maybe need to see how Zion was at Duke.
Or maybe the staff told Zion to manage his effort... I don't know what to say.
Or maybe the staff told Zion to manage his effort... I don't know what to say.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 5:47 pm to TotesMcGotes
It’s amazing that he’s still a force offensively considering he’s 6’5 and overweight.
Shaq dominated overweight too but he was 7 feet tall and his d suffered with the weight game especially later in his career.
Zion would be so much better thinner
Shaq dominated overweight too but he was 7 feet tall and his d suffered with the weight game especially later in his career.
Zion would be so much better thinner
Posted on 1/17/21 at 5:49 pm to Bronc
quote:
His ceiling is still best player in the league. That hasn’t changed in 34 games.
If we don't start seeing athleticism like the gif on page 1, then this is no longer true.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 6:56 pm to ghost2most
quote:
I really don’t think there’s anything more to it than he’s fat.
Lose weight and he’ll have more energy to defend. His natural explosiveness will shine.
This. I think the staff hopes that playing him over 30 minutes per game in this kind of season will work some of the weight off.
But, yeah, the OP and so many of the rest of you have a poor perspective. Check this tweet from Justin Kubatko:
quote:
Zion Williamson recorded 21 points and 12 rebounds last night. He now has 758 points in 34 career games.
He's the first player to reach the 750-point mark in fewer than 35 games since Allen Iverson in 1996-97.
I'd say that's rather remarkable.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 9:04 pm to bonethug0180
quote:I've been pretty consistent in NG my take that Adams is certainly a net positive for success for this team right now at this very moment.
So if that is indeed the case, the +/- numbers with him and Adams runs EXTREMELY counter to your take about them not being a good fit together. The majority of Zion's better +/- numbers are with Adams, including being his top 2 man combo partner, part of his top 3 man combo, and iirc part of his 1st or 2nd highest 4 man combo
But i don't think his fit with Zion is good for getting the max potential out of Zion. And I think maxing out Zion is more important than a few extra wins this season.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 9:05 pm to Bronc
quote:lol, of course purse he hasn't given max effort, what are you watching?
He’s not
If he had been giving max effort, then that'd a million times worse.
quote:W
If anything one of Zions flaws has been over committing, where he will too aggressively close out on a defender
T
F
Posted on 1/17/21 at 9:12 pm to shel311
You are picking a really stupid moment to re-engage on that nonsense.
I take it you weren’t watching this game huh?
I take it you weren’t watching this game huh?
This post was edited on 1/17/21 at 9:16 pm
Posted on 1/17/21 at 9:14 pm to Bronc
quote:You're not being truthful if you're saying you expected him to be the worst defensive player on the team in year 2.
But like I said earlier, if you had expectations he would be anything but a really good young player with holes in his game, likely struggling defensively his first couple season, that he would take at least few seasons to add wrinkles to his offensive game and be reliable with them, your expectations were the problem, not the people that aren’t freaking out because they kept their expectations in check.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 9:17 pm to shel311
Sit down idiot.
You looking like a fricking fool bringing up Zion and his hustle right now when he has just murdered the Kings for two quarters and clowning on you all about all the shite you all spent the last two days claiming he isn’t doing(or can’t)
You looking like a fricking fool bringing up Zion and his hustle right now when he has just murdered the Kings for two quarters and clowning on you all about all the shite you all spent the last two days claiming he isn’t doing(or can’t)
This post was edited on 1/17/21 at 9:18 pm
Posted on 1/17/21 at 9:18 pm to Silverfoxx
Dude, he has 18 points by halftime.
And he’s averaging 21pts/8rebs a game in his second year in the league.
To give you some perspective Anthony Davus averaged 20/10 in his second season at same age. Playing a limited game with no jumpshots yet like Zion.
And AD didnt have an injury.
Youre a fricking idiot safe to say.
And he’s averaging 21pts/8rebs a game in his second year in the league.
To give you some perspective Anthony Davus averaged 20/10 in his second season at same age. Playing a limited game with no jumpshots yet like Zion.
And AD didnt have an injury.
Youre a fricking idiot safe to say.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 9:19 pm to TotesMcGotes
quote:This all day.
I can deal with the lack of bball IQ. That can be mitigated by reps and scheme. I can deal with mistakes on both sides of the ball. Those are growing pains and everyone is going to have them. But how do you look at his effort, play above the rim, and overall demeanor and think he’s the same guy?
To claim those things you just mentioned are what you expected in year 2,nah I ain't buying it. We should all logically be disappointed in those aspects of his game.
Posted on 1/17/21 at 9:19 pm to shel311
quote:
You're not being truthful if you're saying you expected him to be the worst defensive player on the team in year 2.
Incorrect. You were the dumbass if you thought defense was supposed to be a strength of his. Literally everyone knew he was undersized and outside of some crazy blocks, would have to learn to play NBA defense.
21/8 in his second year compared to AD at 20/10.
Please understand that he’s a good young developing allstar and shut the frick up.
We have Ingram and Zion and how good they get is how far we’ll go. If they bloom into perenial all stars we’re in business.
So far so good.
This post was edited on 1/17/21 at 9:22 pm
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