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Why wasn't Tom Hagen considered to be a "wartime" consigliere?
Posted on 5/17/21 at 5:39 pm
Posted on 5/17/21 at 5:39 pm
As the subject asks, why was Tom Hagen not used as a consigliere for "wartime" matters but retained as such for all other matters?
Posted on 5/17/21 at 5:42 pm to bad93ex
He was a lawyer, a talker, a thinker and not Italian.
Posted on 5/17/21 at 5:45 pm to bad93ex
Michael would have been in the same boat with him had he not gone to war and distinguished himself in combat.
Posted on 5/17/21 at 5:48 pm to bad93ex
quote:
As the subject asks, why was Tom Hagen not used as a consigliere for "wartime" matters but retained as such for all other matters?
I've always heard it was because he wasn't an Italian and may not have had the stomach for the upcoming war.
Posted on 5/17/21 at 5:53 pm to bad93ex
I always thought that the implication was that Hagen was an excellent peacetime consigliere because he always looked for the least risky way to expand the family business, and as a lawyer was also mostly focused on making things as legit (or at least as legit-seeming) as possible. Vito knew, though, that during a war risk and illegitimacy were necessary if one was to survive, and ruthlessness was the name of the game. Sonny didn't have Tom's smarts but he was much, much more ruthless.
Posted on 5/17/21 at 5:55 pm to jdd48
He didn't have the Sicilian head for treachery and war time tactics like Genco. But in reality, Michael's whole plan was to go legitimate and he knew things would get messy and it would smear Hagen's name (which needed to be squeaky clean for the move to Nevada to "legitimize" the business with politics and the gaming commission and casinos. In the original book, Tom was a tough kid who had a rough go of it on the street as a homeless orphan and him and Sonny became inseparable and Vito adopted him. A node to Vito's character being distinguished from the other old time bosses who would never dream of working that closely with a non Italian, whereas Vito (largely a white collar boss in mafia terms, atleast by the time the book/film takes place) symbolizes the "Americanized business ideal" of American LCN, unlike clans and splinter cells with their never ending infighting in the old country.
Posted on 5/17/21 at 6:21 pm to bad93ex
as above Michael and the Don were protecting Hagen from the murderous shite that was about to go down
Posted on 5/17/21 at 6:54 pm to bad93ex
quote:
Why wasn't Tom Hagen considered to be a "wartime" consigliere?
Because his legalistic mind was not capable of understanding that the most binding contracts known to man are signed with blood.
Why bring Tom Hagen to arbitration when you can bring Luca Brasi?
This post was edited on 5/17/21 at 7:02 pm
Posted on 5/17/21 at 7:41 pm to Shiftyplus1
quote:
Michael would have been in the same boat with him had he not gone to war and distinguished himself in combat.

He earn't dem scripes.

Posted on 5/17/21 at 7:52 pm to Amadeo
quote:
Why bring Tom Hagen to arbitration when you can bring Luca Brasi?
Well Luca was long gone by then, but at that point Vito was still alive and "semi retired" and was brilliant when it came to understanding the streets so he was obviously the better choice for being the counselor for the big retaliation, even if it couldn't happen until after he died, he could still help plan it.
Posted on 5/17/21 at 8:09 pm to bad93ex
Cuz he wasn't Italian and didn't think he couldn't handle the family's upcoming wars.
Posted on 5/17/21 at 8:11 pm to BorrisMart
Tom Hagen would have been a tremendous mafia asset in the 70s and 80s, but his skill set was not nearly as valuable in the 40s and 50s when there was still a big connection to street thuggery throughout the families.
His assets were his white collar connections and corporate mindset. That's why not having him in Godfather 3 as a foil to Michael in a more modern age was so devastating to the film.
All Duval wanted was fare value for the part he knew would be essential in they movie and Coppola tried to low-ball him and he walked. Instead, we got expanded Sophia Coppola, George Hampilton and generic mob guy badguy Joe Montegna.
To say it was a drop-off in story and casting is an understatement.
His assets were his white collar connections and corporate mindset. That's why not having him in Godfather 3 as a foil to Michael in a more modern age was so devastating to the film.
All Duval wanted was fare value for the part he knew would be essential in they movie and Coppola tried to low-ball him and he walked. Instead, we got expanded Sophia Coppola, George Hampilton and generic mob guy badguy Joe Montegna.
To say it was a drop-off in story and casting is an understatement.
Posted on 5/18/21 at 8:35 am to Jack Ruby
quote:
Tom Hagen would have been a tremendous mafia asset in the 70s and 80s, but his skill set was not nearly as valuable in the 40s and 50s when there was still a big connection to street thuggery throughout the families.
His assets were his white collar connections and corporate mindset. That's why not having him in Godfather 3 as a foil to Michael in a more modern age was so devastating to the film.
All Duval wanted was fare value for the part he knew would be essential in they movie and Coppola tried to low-ball him and he walked. Instead, we got expanded Sophia Coppola, George Hampilton and generic mob guy badguy Joe Montegna.
To say it was a drop-off in story and casting is an understatement.
I completely agree, in the second and third Godfather books (I know not exactly Mario Puzo originals and came out much later) Tom is utilized for that, and I think he may even be a senator in Nevada and ends up whacking a Chicago boss.
But to your point, I agree supposedly the commission was set up to keep the peace and so they could work with whoever was good for business but I don't think that ideal of working with a lot of non Italian and non jewish people really took hold until the 60s on (as in in the 50s they were probably still stuck in the old world ways as most of the bosses were actually born in Italy at that point, and they definitely didn't think highly of Irish people).
ETA: I'd even argue that the entire story would not be what it was without Tom Hagen and it would have been just another decent mob movie. Them taking Tom in and letting him be a consigliere (who wasn't made) was such a taboo thing that it was perfect for a movie and in places like NYC (and other mobbed up areas) at the time you know a lot of the viewers were drawn in by that dynamic. Its also a redeeming quality for Vito and Sonny, and I guess Michael to a degree but Michael was cold to everyone when he came back from the war.
This post was edited on 5/18/21 at 8:38 am
Posted on 5/18/21 at 8:54 am to bad93ex
quote:He was the master of short term risk assessment. This was perfect for Vito's long term plan of making the family legitimate and Michael a Washington power broker.
Why wasn't Tom Hagen considered to be a "wartime" consigliere?
Once Sonny jettisoned that plan, and Michael then decided to delay the plan until the next generation, Tom was out of his area of expertise. A wartime consigliere needs to be able to see that war now leads to a future with an extended peace.
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