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re: What Writers Should Learn From Wonder Woman
Posted on 7/5/17 at 7:13 pm to Fewer Kilometers
Posted on 7/5/17 at 7:13 pm to Fewer Kilometers
i think his issue is just with overall tone. the marvel movies other than the cap sequels, are self referential and fun more than anything else. while the guy who made the video talks about bathos, he's ignoring pathos, which is where DC falters. instead of a fun setting where things aren't super serious and drab, DC makes them overly serious to the point of making that choice to be a hero requires sadness. it's as if the characters have to decide if they're completely ignoring any human aspects of their being to become heroes
what he really misses is how these scenes are juxtaposed against the actually dramatic scenes, giving more power to the 100% dramatic scenes. he criticizes the airport scene while ignoring how this sets up the SUPER 100% SERIOUS AND EMOTIONAL final fight b/w cap and iron man. they even have a self-referential joke b/w the 2 human characters pulling punches. nobody was doing that at the end
it's not an issue with cheese. it's an issue with the movies being absurd on their face. i mean you have people with super powers in a somewhat realistic setting. that is absurd and if you don't acknowledge the absurdity, then you get a draining, bleak, and anti-fun movie (like the recent superman movies).
there are certain settings where you can go almost exclusively dark with a set tone. more human-based stories and settings, like...batman, daredevil, punisher, etc. those stories can be gritty and bleak without issue, because they're much more "human" characters/settings.
what he really misses is how these scenes are juxtaposed against the actually dramatic scenes, giving more power to the 100% dramatic scenes. he criticizes the airport scene while ignoring how this sets up the SUPER 100% SERIOUS AND EMOTIONAL final fight b/w cap and iron man. they even have a self-referential joke b/w the 2 human characters pulling punches. nobody was doing that at the end
it's not an issue with cheese. it's an issue with the movies being absurd on their face. i mean you have people with super powers in a somewhat realistic setting. that is absurd and if you don't acknowledge the absurdity, then you get a draining, bleak, and anti-fun movie (like the recent superman movies).
there are certain settings where you can go almost exclusively dark with a set tone. more human-based stories and settings, like...batman, daredevil, punisher, etc. those stories can be gritty and bleak without issue, because they're much more "human" characters/settings.
3
Posted on 7/5/17 at 7:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
what he really misses is how these scenes are juxtaposed against the actually dramatic scenes, giving more power to the 100% dramatic scenes. he criticizes the airport scene while ignoring how this sets up the SUPER 100% SERIOUS AND EMOTIONAL final fight b/w cap and iron man. they even have a self-referential joke b/w the 2 human characters pulling punches. nobody was doing that at the end
Another good example.
And the Rhodey scene was important, because of the very point of the scenes prior. That tonal shift was intentional particularly because they were "pulling punches" then it actually gets real, with real consequences. That was built to add weight, and to setup a bigger final fight with more consequences.
It wasn't a flippant situation (and technically wasn't Bathos, even though the author includes it as such). Bathos is specifically bringing a trivial tone to a scene. The Rhodey works the opposite direction. It brings weight to a trivial affair.
This post was edited on 7/5/17 at 7:19 pm
Posted on 7/5/17 at 7:24 pm to Freauxzen
i mean you can even compare the "pulling punches" joke to the part in the final fight when iron man's computer is literally telling him that he can't survive the "real" punches of cap as they reign down on stark
and yeah i read your comments after i posted and i almost included a lot more about cap being anti-fun, but just left it to speaking about his movies, generally. Marvel's universe works b/c they have different characters with different personalities...some are more fun and some are less fun (and their movies require comedy away from their character, like the "on your left" jokes in cap 2)
GOTG is basically saying 'this is all fricking insane' b/c of the massive scale of their wondrous galaxy. thor is apparently moving that way (and i can't wait). Dr. Strange is kind of in the same realm b/c we're getting into really, really weird shite. you simply cannot project seriousness in the face of the absurdity of these cosmic and magical realities
and yeah i read your comments after i posted and i almost included a lot more about cap being anti-fun, but just left it to speaking about his movies, generally. Marvel's universe works b/c they have different characters with different personalities...some are more fun and some are less fun (and their movies require comedy away from their character, like the "on your left" jokes in cap 2)
GOTG is basically saying 'this is all fricking insane' b/c of the massive scale of their wondrous galaxy. thor is apparently moving that way (and i can't wait). Dr. Strange is kind of in the same realm b/c we're getting into really, really weird shite. you simply cannot project seriousness in the face of the absurdity of these cosmic and magical realities
Posted on 7/5/17 at 7:50 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
he's ignoring pathos
And he's missing the scenes and characters and the pathos behind them, for instance:
1) With Rocket - The Scene where Quill sees his scars, the aforementioned kill everyone, the scenes with Yondu in GotG2 and the one where Quill leaves
2) Tony - Did anyone laugh when he was drunk fighting Rhodey in IM2? There was absurdity there and some comedy, but you're supposed to feel bad for Tony. How about his opening scene in Civil War with his hologram parents? Of course Tony makes a quip, because you can tell he's deeply hurt by that scene.
He also misses the point of the Dr. Strange scene as well (again, as someone skilled in writing, he clearly misses plenty of narrative tells). Up to the point in the film with the Cloak and tugging on it as it wipes his face, we've seen Strange look in mirrors and windows multiple times. This is an obvious plot device signifying that Strange is a narcissistic person. All through the film, He doesn't accept help (" You've done enough!"), and he values his own skills and resources above all. That "shot" of Strange's face is something we see over and over again - his opening appearance, bathroom mirror, Window over New York, etc.
The cloak is sentient (to a point), it can represent "someone." It actually just finished helping Strange fight some bad guys. It helped him. In that moment, the cloak is supposed to represent something finally getting through to him, of Strange finally being open to something, or someone, helping him. The cloak wipes his face because that's an extremely intimate and kind thing to do for someone. It's also a simple gesture that you would only do for a close friend or family member.
Was it maybe slightly too funny? Sure, there's an argument for that, but there's not much you can do with a sentient cloak to illustrate that point.
quote:
and yeah i read your comments after i posted and i almost included a lot more about cap being anti-fun, but just left it to speaking about his movies, generally. Marvel's universe works b/c they have different characters with different personalities...some are more fun and some are less fun (and their movies require comedy away from their character, like the "on your left" jokes in cap 2) GOTG is basically saying 'this is all fricking insane' b/c of the massive scale of their wondrous galaxy. thor is apparently moving that way (and i can't wait). Dr. Strange is kind of in the same realm b/c we're getting into really, really weird shite. you simply cannot project seriousness in the face of the absurdity of these cosmic and magical realities
Exactly.
This post was edited on 7/5/17 at 8:20 pm
Posted on 7/5/17 at 8:11 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Exactly.
Posted on 7/5/17 at 8:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 7/6/17 at 5:27 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
what he really misses is how these scenes are juxtaposed against the actually dramatic scenes, giving more power to the 100% dramatic scenes. he criticizes the airport scene while ignoring how this sets up the SUPER 100% SERIOUS AND EMOTIONAL final fight b/w cap and iron man. they even have a self-referential joke b/w the 2 human characters pulling punches. nobody was doing that at the end
I thought this was extremely obvious, and I'm surprised he missed it.
quote:
And the Rhodey scene was important, because of the very point of the scenes prior. That tonal shift was intentional particularly because they were "pulling punches" then it actually gets real, with real consequences. That was built to add weight, and to setup a bigger final fight with more consequences.
It wasn't a flippant situation (and technically wasn't Bathos, even though the author includes it as such). Bathos is specifically bringing a trivial tone to a scene. The Rhodey works the opposite direction. It brings weight to a trivial affair.
This as well.
Posted on 7/6/17 at 4:48 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
And he's missing the scenes and characters and the pathos behind them, for instance:
Hell, he's also ignoring the pathos in the actual scenes he's citing. The GOTG scene in which Rocket says, "we're all standing like a bunch of jackasses" is a huge emotional moment. Sure, he tells a joke during it, but it's a well-earned joke that's been built on 100 minutes of character development. The line is only funny in his mouth, which is the mark of a good character beat. I mean, that scene is them deciding to trust each other and walk into near certain death, sacrificing for each other. For rocket NOT to tell a joke would go against his character (and telling a joke, isn't bathos, it doesn't undercut the scene at all.. it strengthens it: it shows he's still the same character).
The piece goes back to the Doc Strange cap at least three different times. That's pretty much proof positive he doesn't have a good point. If there was an endemic problem with bathos, he'd address more than one moment, but it's really the only bullet in his gun. He keeps going back to it, hoping you won't notice he's unable to reference anything else.
The big emotional beat is not the cape scene in the closet anyway, it's the conversation in which the Ancient One watches her one moment over and over again. And they don't undercut a thing, or crack a joke. It's emotional core, they play totally straight, with no winking.
And that's the thing, the characters quip because they are funny, interesting characters who like being around each other. They also do it as a character flaw Tony Stark tells jokes to mask his insecurities, Doc Strange to feed his massive ego, Rocket to hide his pain and general nihilism, and Quill because he's trying to be a badass that he knows he isn't. It's a character beat. But what it isn't is undercutting the action or winking at the audience.
Look at the jokes he cites, there is no example of a joke that is making fun of the dramatic tension itself. There's no "well, this is a big round room" joke by Wolverine as in X-Men. No one mocks the idea of he mirror dimension or guys in super suits. They play the actual concepts straight. It's just full of people who enjoy busting each other's balls. That's not bathos that's comedy.
And Wonder Woman had it, too. Hell, Chris Pine cracks a joke during the alleyway fight about her bullet deflecting bands. They literally poke fun at her superpower/supersuit in the middle of the action.
Posted on 7/6/17 at 4:53 pm to Baloo
quote:
The piece goes back to the Doc Strange cap at least three different times. That's pretty much proof positive he doesn't have a good point. If there was an endemic problem with bathos, he'd address more than one moment, but it's really the only bullet in his gun. He keeps going back to it, hoping you won't notice he's unable to reference anything else.
The big emotional beat is not the cape scene in the closet anyway, it's the conversation in which the Ancient One watches her one moment over and over again. And they don't undercut a thing, or crack a joke. It's emotional core, they play totally straight, with no winking.
And that's the thing, the characters quip because they are funny, interesting characters who like being around each other. They also do it as a character flaw Tony Stark tells jokes to mask his insecurities, Doc Strange to feed his massive ego, Rocket to hide his pain and general nihilism, and Quill because he's trying to be a badass that he knows he isn't. It's a character beat. But what it isn't is undercutting the action or winking at the audience.
Look at the jokes he cites, there is no example of a joke that is making fun of the dramatic tension itself. There's no "well, this is a big round room" joke by Wolverine as in X-Men. No one mocks the idea of he mirror dimension or guys in super suits. They play the actual concepts straight. It's just full of people who enjoy busting each other's balls. That's not bathos that's comedy.
Yup.
quote:
And Wonder Woman had it, too. Hell, Chris Pine cracks a joke during the alleyway fight about her bullet deflecting bands. They literally poke fun at her superpower/supersuit in the middle of the action.
I don't know if it was that, but I do remember laughing at one point then second guessing myself because it was World War 1 and all. I only saw it once, and don't remember the exact scene, but I was like "Ooooo, should I be laughing now...?"
Posted on 7/6/17 at 5:31 pm to Freauxzen
I think Wonder Woman has huge tone problems in the trenches scenes. As a devoted World War I nerd, it felt wrong and pretty close to disrespectful. the movie worked much better as soon as they got out of the detour in the trenches and got to the town and the sniper, and later at German HQ.
Speaking of tone problems, it is a really, REALLY dark movie which is okay if that's what you're going for, but makes it impossible for me to take my daughter which is sort of the reason for the movie to exist. I will let her watch it when it comes to DVD, only I'll stop the movie once it gets to the war. The origin story, escape to England, and assembling the gang is too great. It's just too much for a portion of its intended audience after that.
Speaking of tone problems, it is a really, REALLY dark movie which is okay if that's what you're going for, but makes it impossible for me to take my daughter which is sort of the reason for the movie to exist. I will let her watch it when it comes to DVD, only I'll stop the movie once it gets to the war. The origin story, escape to England, and assembling the gang is too great. It's just too much for a portion of its intended audience after that.
Posted on 7/7/17 at 11:41 am to Baloo
quote:
I think Wonder Woman has huge tone problems in the trenches scenes. As a devoted World War I nerd, it felt wrong and pretty close to disrespectful. the movie worked much better as soon as they got out of the detour in the trenches and got to the town and the sniper, and later at German HQ.
Yeah I'm pretty sure Bremner made a couple of jokes while they were traveling. I mean, it's probably justifiable for his alcoholic Scotsman, but still.
Posted on 7/7/17 at 12:05 pm to Freauxzen
Probably the first review of Wonder Woman that used the word "disrespectful".
Posted on 7/7/17 at 12:18 pm to Baloo
We get it. The MCU can do no wrong. Have a mimosa, sit down, and start counting your Disney shill money.
Posted on 7/7/17 at 12:29 pm to RollTide1987
If only I were getting a check. And they can do wrong. I think Civil War was primarily a waste of time, and just an excuse to answer the most boring question in comics: who would win if X fought Y? It's not narratively interesting, honestly.
I think Marvel has also absolutely dropped the ball on Captain Marvel. There;s no reason why they should not have had a Carol Danvers movie out years ago. As the joke goes, there were more white dudes named Chris than women in the Avengers. The good buzz Wonder Woman is getting has a lot to do with how staggeringly terrible Marvel's drop of the ball was.
And I liked Wonder Woman. I didn't love it, and I thought the actors lifted some soggy material to a higher level. Bremner, especially, was f'n great. Gal Gadot was amazing, and almost certainly will cause Justice League reshoots so she can get a bigger part.
But yeah, I think the movie essentially endorsing the slander that if only the troops were more brave they could have broken through the lines is borderline offensive. It's precisely that belief that got millions of people murdered in the trenches, and later got radical, authoritarian dick noses like Hitler and Stalin in power.
I will take the mimosa, though.
I think Marvel has also absolutely dropped the ball on Captain Marvel. There;s no reason why they should not have had a Carol Danvers movie out years ago. As the joke goes, there were more white dudes named Chris than women in the Avengers. The good buzz Wonder Woman is getting has a lot to do with how staggeringly terrible Marvel's drop of the ball was.
And I liked Wonder Woman. I didn't love it, and I thought the actors lifted some soggy material to a higher level. Bremner, especially, was f'n great. Gal Gadot was amazing, and almost certainly will cause Justice League reshoots so she can get a bigger part.
But yeah, I think the movie essentially endorsing the slander that if only the troops were more brave they could have broken through the lines is borderline offensive. It's precisely that belief that got millions of people murdered in the trenches, and later got radical, authoritarian dick noses like Hitler and Stalin in power.
I will take the mimosa, though.
Posted on 7/7/17 at 12:31 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Yeah I'm pretty sure Bremner made a couple of jokes while they were traveling. I mean, it's probably justifiable for his alcoholic Scotsman, but still.
I'm all in for gallows humor. That was great, and again, a good character beat. Bremner has seen horrible things, and he uses humor (and alcohol) to deflect.
Posted on 7/7/17 at 12:53 pm to Baloo
quote:
I think the movie essentially endorsing the slander that if only the troops were more brave they could have broken through the lines is borderline offensive.
I really think that you brought some baggage into your viewing of the film. No one said or insinuated that the troops were less than brave. The superhero with the bullet proof bracelets and shield takes it upon herself to take on the enemy gunfire. Steve and his men see that the Germans are concentrating all of their fire on her (actually shouting that out) and use that as a means of accessing no-man's land. Then, the Allies, seeing that a possibly successful push is underway, join in the fight.
The writers and director went out of their way to present the horror and futility of the war. It was done in a comic book fashion, but then I don't see how a documentary style insight into the chemical, disease, and psychological damage and deaths would've made this movie appropriate for kids.
Did you have a problem with Captain America Vs the cartoon Hydra stand-ins that they had in place of Nazis? Or the X-Men movies riffing off of the holocaust for their main hero/villain? We're going to have superhero movies that are tied into historical atrocities. Wonder Woman was more honest than most when it came to the de-glorification of war. I give them props for that at least.
Posted on 7/7/17 at 1:26 pm to Baloo
quote:
I think Civil War was primarily a waste of time, and just an excuse to answer the most boring question in comics: who would win if X fought Y?
Woah now. This is the most important nerd question for any property at any time.
But all truth aside, it was largely trivial. I do think it was written more with the end in mind - "How do we get Tony and Cap on different sides...?" Probably with a means to start the story for Infinity War with some particular scene or sequence in mind. This is obviously where the long game negatively effects individual films.
quote:
I think Marvel has also absolutely dropped the ball on Captain Marvel. There;s no reason why they should not have had a Carol Danvers movie out years ago. As the joke goes, there were more white dudes named Chris than women in the Avengers. The good buzz Wonder Woman is getting has a lot to do with how staggeringly terrible Marvel's drop of the ball was.
But Captain Marvel's cultural cache is like 1/1000000th of WW's. It certainly would have been smart, but they built a good set of heroes to ride for a bit.
I think CM is less a missed opportunity when they had a perfectly good female character, and a Top Tier Actress in ScarJo on board. That, to me, especially with Widow's rather interesting background, was missed.
quote:
And I liked Wonder Woman. I didn't love it, and I thought the actors lifted some soggy material to a higher level. Bremner, especially, was f'n great. Gal Gadot was amazing, and almost certainly will cause Justice League reshoots so she can get a bigger part.
This.
Posted on 7/7/17 at 3:26 pm to Fewer Kilometers
quote:
I really think that you brought some baggage into your viewing of the film. No one said or insinuated that the troops were less than brave. The superhero with the bullet proof bracelets and shield takes it upon herself to take on the enemy gunfire. Steve and his men see that the Germans are concentrating all of their fire on her (actually shouting that out) and use that as a means of accessing no-man's land. Then, the Allies, seeing that a possibly successful push is underway, join in the fight.
Sure. I admitted I brought in the baggage in my very first comment. And most of the audience is largely ignorant of anything about WWI beyond "trenches" and "it really sucked".
I have no issue with the literal superhero being able to cross no man's land. I do have an issue with her merry band of misfits being able to without injury, and the camera lingered over the trench to show everyone else was too afraid to go over the top. So, yes, it literally did endorse the belief that the regular troops were too afraid. And while we're talking about getting taken out of scenes, that's when I called bullshite.
I also don't want a documentary style as I literally talked about how the film's tone was too dark. Why do you think I wanted them to go cinema verite? That's not my point at all.
They should have avoided the trenches all together. Have the fight in the village. Have the sniper scene. Do the stuff at German HQ, and have the fight at the air base. All of that was good. My objection was too the trenches. It was a tonal mistake, and the solution is not to make it even more grim.
Again, we have a superhero movie for little girls that I can't take my little girl to.
Clearly, I'd be okay with HYDRA because they turned the Germans in WWI into Nazis in Wonder Woman, and I didn't make that my objection. The Germans in WWI were assuredly NOT Nazis, but a movie needs a villain, so whatever. I also don't object to Raiders of the Lost Ark.
I'd have a problem with the X-Men using the Holocaust metaphor if they then tried to endorse the Final Solution. My problem with the trenches is again, is that it parrotted a common slander against the soldiers of the time. Endorsing that view is sort of gross. I know it's unintentional, and I don't think it ruined the movie, but it did ruin that scene for me.
The movie works much better if they just cut that scene entirely. But we can't talk about writing unless we actually want to talk about writing, and the decisions they made. Otherwise, we're just blowing smoke up each other's butts.
Posted on 7/7/17 at 3:30 pm to Baloo
quote:
The movie works much better if they just cut that scene entirely.
I don't usually like to use the term "literally", but it's literally the most acclaimed scene in the film.
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