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Message
"Subverting Expectations" (Ultra mild spoilers for a couple of movies)
Posted on 12/30/19 at 2:16 pm
Posted on 12/30/19 at 2:16 pm
I'll try to find the article I was reading, but I'll paraphrase what I read here.
In the article, it was stated that Johnson should get a chance to finish the Star Wars trilogy because he was a great filmmaker and was being punished to for "not giving fans what they wanted."
I just want to discuss a few points they make.
First, they list off other movies of his that do this (mild spoilers - I'm not giving anything away plot wise)
Knives Out (which I saw and genuinely enjoyed)
Looper
Brick (which I have not yet seen)
I can see some people making this comparison, but it fails on a major note:
These are not preconceived properties.
Star Wars is a long standing brand. The characters are fully developed and beloved.
This would be like the MCU suddenly having Captain America wave a Nazi flag and impaling Tony Stark's kid on it. That's not "subverting expectations", that's just taking a steaming dump on all the build-up that came before it.
I just grow tired of directors using "subverting expectations" as some kind of "get out of jail free" card for crappy writing.
It works great when you are a good writer and encapsulate it within a single movie. Or you have direction for that from the start and can still tease the audience with subtle hints.
It doesn't work when you take over someone else's work (Star Wars) or run out of source material and decide to suddenly flip everything on its head (GoT).
The MCU did things right, even if I disagree on a few tidbits here and there. Thor's depression? Hinted at in Infinity War and the end of Thor: Ragnarok.
Luke's casual toss of his father's lightsaber? Hinted at in the Star Wars special maybe? I never watched it.
Anyway, that's my two cents. I really want to find the article. I thought it was Forbes, but a search for Rian Johnson there didn't turn it up.
In the article, it was stated that Johnson should get a chance to finish the Star Wars trilogy because he was a great filmmaker and was being punished to for "not giving fans what they wanted."
I just want to discuss a few points they make.
First, they list off other movies of his that do this (mild spoilers - I'm not giving anything away plot wise)
Knives Out (which I saw and genuinely enjoyed)
Looper
Brick (which I have not yet seen)
I can see some people making this comparison, but it fails on a major note:
These are not preconceived properties.
Star Wars is a long standing brand. The characters are fully developed and beloved.
This would be like the MCU suddenly having Captain America wave a Nazi flag and impaling Tony Stark's kid on it. That's not "subverting expectations", that's just taking a steaming dump on all the build-up that came before it.
I just grow tired of directors using "subverting expectations" as some kind of "get out of jail free" card for crappy writing.
It works great when you are a good writer and encapsulate it within a single movie. Or you have direction for that from the start and can still tease the audience with subtle hints.
It doesn't work when you take over someone else's work (Star Wars) or run out of source material and decide to suddenly flip everything on its head (GoT).
The MCU did things right, even if I disagree on a few tidbits here and there. Thor's depression? Hinted at in Infinity War and the end of Thor: Ragnarok.
Luke's casual toss of his father's lightsaber? Hinted at in the Star Wars special maybe? I never watched it.
Anyway, that's my two cents. I really want to find the article. I thought it was Forbes, but a search for Rian Johnson there didn't turn it up.
8
Posted on 12/30/19 at 2:23 pm to skrayper
2 years and counting.... The Last Jedi melt will only be rivaled by January 9, 2012.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 3:04 pm to skrayper
quote:
"Subverting Expectations
This phrase is even worse than popcorn flick. Whenever something is total crap, it is either a popcorn flick or now it has become subverting expectations.
People should be tarred and feathered anytime they use those phrases.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 3:15 pm to TigerMyth36
I subverted the expectations of your popcorn flick. Pray I do not subvert them any further.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 3:24 pm to skrayper
There’s a lot of ways to subvert expectations within established universes and characters. Johnson just did so in ways that either produced no payoff for the audience, acted out of character completely without developing them, resulted in only shock value, or resulted in not moving the plot along at all.
Killing Leah would have subverted expectations and shocked audiences while moving the plot along. Rey joining Kylo would have done something similar. What we got was just bad writing.
Killing Leah would have subverted expectations and shocked audiences while moving the plot along. Rey joining Kylo would have done something similar. What we got was just bad writing.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 5:31 pm to kingbob
quote:
kingbob
Exactly.
The RLM wine tasting analogy sums it up.
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 5:33 pm
Posted on 12/30/19 at 6:31 pm to skrayper
Oh sweet summer child, if you only knew the storylines coming...
Posted on 12/30/19 at 6:35 pm to ZappBrannigan
No one likes Secret Empire. I highly doubt they make a movie out of it.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 8:12 pm to TigerMyth36
quote:
This phrase is even worse than popcorn flick. Whenever something is total crap, it is either a popcorn flick or now it has become subverting expectations.
People should be tarred and feathered anytime they use those phrases.
It's also a lazy cop out for producing garbage. If you went to a steak restaurant and they served you a bowl of rat turds that would subvert the hell out of your expectations.
The phrase has become a widespread meme of mockery for a reason. Anything shitty can use that as a defense.
The Star Wars Holiday Special subverted expectations pretty effectively too.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 8:18 pm to bodask42
quote:
2 years and counting.... The Last Jedi melt will only be rivaled by January 9, 2012.
Since when is pointing out something sucks "melting"?
I never saw it because I thought the one before it sucked.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 8:25 pm to TigerMyth36
quote:
"Subverting Expectations This phrase is even worse than popcorn flick.
Respectfully disagree. It’s still a useful club in a filmmakers bag, but when it’s the only club you have it’s useless
Knives Out had good acting, a good plot, humor, and suspense along with subverting expectations (but very little).
Last Jedi used “subverting expecatations” 95% of the time and the other 5% was fan service with Luke and Yoda.
Rogue One basically did the opposite IMO but had much better acting, unfortunately from characters whose name I will never remember bc there story matters nothing to me even as a Star Wars fan.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 9:01 pm to skrayper
"Subverting expectations" is a failed thing.
Either it's meant to be edgy and cool- at which point that has been played out way too much, and it's actually lame instead now;
or you don't think you can meet expectations, so you go the other way instead- which is a copout.
Game of Thrones is the former, it would have been far better had they played it safe for the ending, let Jon and Dany win and hook up (or maybe one dies at the end in a sacrifice to save the other).
The Last Jedi is the latter, it doesn't even try to be Star Wars, it intentionally goes another direction and we're supposed to respect that. Nah, at least try to be what you are.
Either it's meant to be edgy and cool- at which point that has been played out way too much, and it's actually lame instead now;
or you don't think you can meet expectations, so you go the other way instead- which is a copout.
Game of Thrones is the former, it would have been far better had they played it safe for the ending, let Jon and Dany win and hook up (or maybe one dies at the end in a sacrifice to save the other).
The Last Jedi is the latter, it doesn't even try to be Star Wars, it intentionally goes another direction and we're supposed to respect that. Nah, at least try to be what you are.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 10:57 pm to SHOtime Tiger
Rogue One certainly subverted the f$&k out of my expectations when all the leads
SPOILERS!!!
died in the end
SPOILERS!!!
died in the end
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:39 pm to skrayper
"Subverting Expectations" used to be an interesting tool when it wasn't used specifically to make political statements or to tear down the things people loved, just to tear them down or to make way for "something else" that wasn't the thing people wanted.
You can easily see this in reboot culture.
I'm on my fake news rant today, but honestly, I also think "subverting expectations" is also used now to covertly destabilize expected truths, or cultural truths.
You can easily see this in reboot culture.
I'm on my fake news rant today, but honestly, I also think "subverting expectations" is also used now to covertly destabilize expected truths, or cultural truths.
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 11:41 pm
Posted on 12/31/19 at 6:53 am to Freauxzen
I think there is some of that going on, but I also think it has just replaced popcorn flick as the marketing term they use when they know the movie is garbage.
There has definitely been a concerted effort to tear down old school culture and replace it with PC nonsense and they have been calling that effort subverting expectations.
And for the most part, the tear down and replace effort has been a big pile of garbage thus nothing more than popcorn flick trash.
There has definitely been a concerted effort to tear down old school culture and replace it with PC nonsense and they have been calling that effort subverting expectations.
And for the most part, the tear down and replace effort has been a big pile of garbage thus nothing more than popcorn flick trash.
Posted on 12/31/19 at 7:08 am to skrayper
Brick did not subvert any expectations, it was a note by note genre film. Whether it was marketed as that genre (neo-noir) is beside the point.
I would argue that the movie only works precisely because it adheres so strongly to cliches.
As for TLJ, I want to see just one interview with Rian where he's asked point blank for a logical conclusion to the trilogy following his movie. What did he think would hook fans and make them need to see the conclusion?
I would argue that the movie only works precisely because it adheres so strongly to cliches.
As for TLJ, I want to see just one interview with Rian where he's asked point blank for a logical conclusion to the trilogy following his movie. What did he think would hook fans and make them need to see the conclusion?
Posted on 12/31/19 at 7:37 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
No one likes Secret Empire. I highly doubt they make a movie out of it.
While true it makes civil war II look well thought out. There isnt much big epic Carol stories to mine until they get Alpha Flight in Spaaaaaaaaaace and back in the day X-Men rolling.
Posted on 12/31/19 at 1:35 pm to SHOtime Tiger
quote:I'm not saying subverting expectations is bad. I am saying the only time you hear a director use the phrase, the movie was crap.
Respectfully disagree
It is a cop out used by directors for their failed movies and shows. There have been 100s of great movies that had twists that subverted expectations that nobody on the planet has ever used that phrase to describe the movie.
It is only broken out by directors of recently failed movies and shows.
Posted on 12/31/19 at 2:23 pm to skrayper
nm
This post was edited on 5/21/20 at 2:00 pm
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