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re: Official Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part II Reaction Thread
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:22 pm to yungtigr
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:22 pm to yungtigr
He was scared of him. In the book, Harry can tell that he's cautious and doesn't want to approach him. I think that voldemort was somehow in that dream sequence with Harry and Voldemort, but didn't realize what it was about, and probably didn't understand any of the conversation. Again, not in the book, but my theory.
Dumbledore told HP in HBP that Voldemort was very prideful and arrogant. Someone mentioned something about how stupid was it to hide a horcrux in a room where students had been hiding things for years. A) Voldemort was arrogant enough to think that only he had discovered all of the secrets at Hogwarts, and even if someone found that room, B) no one would ever know that he had made a horcrux and hid it in there. That was his big downfall. Call it stupid if you want, but that was what led to his demise.
Dumbledore told HP in HBP that Voldemort was very prideful and arrogant. Someone mentioned something about how stupid was it to hide a horcrux in a room where students had been hiding things for years. A) Voldemort was arrogant enough to think that only he had discovered all of the secrets at Hogwarts, and even if someone found that room, B) no one would ever know that he had made a horcrux and hid it in there. That was his big downfall. Call it stupid if you want, but that was what led to his demise.
1
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:23 pm to molsusports
The only downfall to Narcissa's lie about Harry being dead is if Voldemort (or faithful Death Eater) would have checked Harry after or if somebody other than Hagrid carried Harry's body.
I think at that moment, Narcissa was either too freaked out that Harry survived again or elated that Draco was still alive (or both) and wanted to get out. I think the whole family was ready to run, but felt stuck as long as Voldemort was alive.
I think we all assume what Narcissa (or Rowling) was thinking at the time and that makes for a good argument.
I think at that moment, Narcissa was either too freaked out that Harry survived again or elated that Draco was still alive (or both) and wanted to get out. I think the whole family was ready to run, but felt stuck as long as Voldemort was alive.
I think we all assume what Narcissa (or Rowling) was thinking at the time and that makes for a good argument.
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:23 pm to molsusports
I just think you need to read the book again, bro 
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:26 pm to sicboy
I'll probably just be annoyed with the draco character again - I generally only reread a book if there was a lot of interesting substance and I still view the HP books as fun popcorn reads
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:26 pm to molsusports
Fair enough.
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:27 pm to sicboy
I agree with all of that. All I'm saying is that Voldemort admits his uncertainty to his followers by sending Narcissa to check him. If he's going that far in his self doubt, he may as well shoot another killing curse in him for good measure just to make sure.
ETA: Its not a serious critique, but it struck me as odd from the moment I first read it that Voldemort, who trusted absolutely noone, would take Narcissa at her word at such a crucial moment.
ETA: Its not a serious critique, but it struck me as odd from the moment I first read it that Voldemort, who trusted absolutely noone, would take Narcissa at her word at such a crucial moment.
This post was edited on 7/18/11 at 5:29 pm
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:29 pm to yungtigr
Well he did perform the Cruciatus (SIC) on him just to humiliate him some more, which had no effect on Harry.....but alas, didn't make it into the movie.
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:29 pm to yungtigr
That would show even less confidence in his power. I think he had her check to show the others present, not to be sure himself. His arrogance was his downfall in many ways.
Posted on 7/18/11 at 5:51 pm to molsusports
quote:
right
but the thing you (IMO) have strangely repeatedly failed to consider - is that withholding vital information from Vold would lead to massive retribution
I am not claiming they had to be motivated by the hope of a reward - I'm saying they should have been motivated by a fear of punishment
If you want to argue they were withholding the information because they were taking HP's side - then that makes some sense... except that the movie seems to undermine that argument in the scene that follows
If you want to argue they were withholding the information because they were just scared and looking for an opportunity to run? I have trouble with that because lying about Harry being alive does them no apparent good - but puts them at serious potential risk
OK, lets weigh the options here. Narcissa's actions could have turned out one of four ways:
1) Tell Voldemort Harry is alive, Voldemort kills Harry, Voldemort arrives at the castle and finds the Diadem destroyed and does some investigating and finds that Draco failed to prevent it and kills all three of them. Yes Narcissa couldn't have seen this coming, but she knew it was a matter of time before he snapped and killed all three of them anyway, and if not they would have literally been Voldemort's slaves for the rest of their lives.
2) Tell Voldemort Harry is alive, Harry kills Voldemort like he was prophesied to, and the three of them spend the rest of their days in Azkaban.
3) Lie to Voldemort that Harry is dead, Voldemort finds out Harry is still alive and kills Harry, and then kills all the Malfoys.
4) Lie to Voldemort that Harry is dead, you know the person who was prophesied to kill Voldemort and survives a killing curse twice, the only person to do so. Harry then kills Voldemort, and the Malfoys are fine. This gives them leeway and an alibi for betraying Lord Volfemort after the war so that they don't go to Azkaban. So Harry being alive and assisting him in anyway does them a great deal of good after the war is over.
3 out of 4 of those results pretty much result in death or life imprisonment for all the Malfoys, so she went with the choice that would give them all their freedom. She made the correct choice obviously.
This post was edited on 7/18/11 at 5:52 pm
Posted on 7/18/11 at 6:01 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
2) Tell Voldemort Harry is alive, Harry kills Voldemort like he was prophesied to, and the three of them spend the rest of their days in Azkaban.
JMO your posts read like you are scrambling to rationalize the plot more than it probably deserves
and you kinda ignored the outcome: lie to him... then vold walks over and notices HP is alive and turns around to kill her and her husband on the spot
This one is a really hard one to understand frankly. Why Vold did not further desecrate the body or zap it a few dozen more times for good measure was hard for me to believe. I know arrogance or some-such will be the argument - but frankly IMO it is more honest to admit the plot had some minor flaws or illogical leaps and leave it at that
Vold proceeded with teh assumption that HP was dead - and there was still some opportunity to try and make a getaway in the conflict about to ensue between the wizards at Hogwarts and Vold's forces. Draco's mother took a substantial and irrational risk in lying to Vold when he or any (if anyone other than Hagrid carried HP for example) of his minions could have immediately discovered the lie and punished it on the spot
Posted on 7/18/11 at 6:09 pm to molsusports
quote:
and you kinda ignored the outcome: lie to him... then vold walks over and notices HP is alive and turns around to kill her and her husband on the spot
No I didn't, that was Option 3.
quote:
This one is a really hard one to understand frankly. Why Vold did not further desecrate the body or zap it a few dozen more times for good measure was hard for me to believe. I know arrogance or some-such will be the argument - but frankly IMO it is more honest to admit the plot had some minor flaws or illogical leaps and leave it at that
He zapped him with Crucio a couple of more times in the novels, but the curse didn't affect Harry. I'm actually not sure if Voldemort used the killing curse on Harry again that it would have worked since his spells weren't working on Harry or the people that Harry sacrificed himself to save.
quote:
Draco's mother took a substantial and irrational risk in lying to Vold when he or any (if anyone other than Hagrid carried HP for example) of his minions could have immediately discovered the lie and punished it on the spot
You act like all the other options were so good and everything would be peachy for them. I'd be pretty confident that Voldemort could kill me at any day and my and my family's survival for another 5 years was heavily unlikely. They felt they were pretty much marked for death, its just whenever they slightly fricked up one more time, which was inevitable. Plus the guy was prophesied to kill Voldemort and slew a fricking Basilisk his 7th grade year. Yeah I'll put my money on that guy.
Posted on 7/18/11 at 6:10 pm to molsusports
quote:
This one is a really hard one to understand frankly. Why Vold did not further desecrate the body or zap it a few dozen more times for good measure was hard for me to believe. I know arrogance or some-such will be the argument - but frankly IMO it is more honest to admit the plot had some minor flaws or illogical leaps and leave it at that
Read my earlier post. He performed the torture curse on Harry's body and threw him up and down in the air. There was no way for Voldemort to know that his spells would have no effect on Harry anymore, so in V's mind, if Harry WAS alive, he would have responded to that curse.
And again, you keep forgetting the fact that she wanted to find Draco. Returning to the castle was her only hope for that.
Pg. 726
"Still feigning death on the ground, he understood. Narcissa knew that the only way she would be permitted to enter Hogwarts, and find her son, was as part of the conquering army. She no longer cared whether Voldemort won."
Posted on 7/18/11 at 6:13 pm to sicboy
You guys over analyze this stuff big time.
You want the movies to be like real life and be like you think it should be to the point that it seems half of you barely enjoy them.
You want the movies to be like real life and be like you think it should be to the point that it seems half of you barely enjoy them.
Posted on 7/18/11 at 6:15 pm to SG_Geaux
Shut up.
Posted on 7/18/11 at 6:34 pm to yungtigr
quote:What did she say when she bent over Potter to see if he was alive? Didn't Potter shake his head or something? What exactly happened there?
Narcissa
Posted on 7/18/11 at 6:38 pm to TexasTigah
Not sure how clear it was in the movie, but in the book, she felt his heart still beating, leaned over, and whispered "Is Draco still alive?" Harry whispered even quieter "yes".
Posted on 7/18/11 at 6:43 pm to sicboy
quote:
Not sure how clear it was in the movie, but in the book, she felt his heart still beating, leaned over, and whispered "Is Draco still alive?" Harry whispered even quieter "yes".
I'm not even sure that he spoke, he definitely nodded yes though.
Posted on 7/18/11 at 6:46 pm to BluegrassBelle
I think that's what it was.
Posted on 7/18/11 at 7:20 pm to sicboy
quote:
"Still feigning death on the ground, he understood. Narcissa knew that the only way she would be permitted to enter Hogwarts, and find her son, was as part of the conquering army. She no longer cared whether Voldemort won."
granted (which undermines an earlier argument that she wanted HP to win btw - sounds like she is neutral and only self serving I guess)
making her only concern what she needed to do to keep her family alive
if she only wanted to return to the castle I would argue lying about HP puts up a potential obstacle - the "oh shite" I just lied for no good reason and got whacked for it reason
Posted on 7/18/11 at 7:23 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Plus the guy was prophesied to kill Voldemort and slew a fricking Basilisk his 7th grade year. Yeah I'll put my money on that guy.
but as just pointed out (a couple posts above) she wasn't wagering on anyone - she was neutral to teh outcome of who won at this point and just wanted to stay alive as long as possible... making any lie/risk she took an irrational risk
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