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Message
re: My 9 y/o daughter's conclusion after seeing the climax in League of Their Own
Posted on 2/9/12 at 11:22 am to Lacour
Posted on 2/9/12 at 11:22 am to Lacour
Damn straight.
Everyone else earlier kept arguing the smile was because she let her win...it was the clue to letting the audience in on the secret.
Bull, I said it was a smile of pride at the start of this thread.
Glad someone else agrees with the few of us who aren't morons.
Everyone else earlier kept arguing the smile was because she let her win...it was the clue to letting the audience in on the secret.
Bull, I said it was a smile of pride at the start of this thread.
Glad someone else agrees with the few of us who aren't morons.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 11:23 am
0
Posted on 2/9/12 at 11:24 am to Lacour
quote:
I rewinded and rewinded. Dottie dropped the ball back and to the left. Back and to the left. Back and to the left.
Dottie dropped it.
But NOT on purpose.
She was too stone faced. Telling Ella Sue to throw Kit the high fast balls. Lasers for eyes.
When Kit railed her, she dropped it. The reason she smiled was because she saw how happy her sister was. And that gave her a sense of peace. Good things can come from bad.
Dottie didn't drop it on purose.
Dottie played to win the game.
She played to win the DAMN game.
This is my current feeling as well.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 11:48 am to bomber77
she loved her sister more than the game. she would've been pissed, not smiling, if she would've accidently dropped it.
dropped on purpose.
dropped on purpose.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 11:55 am to Dr Emmett Brown
quote:
she loved her sister more than the game.
quote:These two contradict each other.
she would've been pissed, not smiling,
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:13 pm to alajones
quote:
These two contradict each other.
Works both ways though:
If she loved her sister more than the game, then she could have been happy dropping the ball for her.
If she loved her sister more than the game, she could be happy that her sister beat her.
Hence the discussion.
The point was, she loves her sister more than the game. Dropping the ball is just this movie's falling top.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:18 pm to Freauxzen
Except the falling top was intentionally ambigious. There were many things leading up to this that say Dottie wanted to win. Not ambigious at all.
Either way you state it, saying she would be pissed is wrong.
Either way you state it, saying she would be pissed is wrong.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:22 pm to alajones
quote:
Except the falling top was intentionally ambigious. There were many things leading up to this that say Dottie wanted to win. Not ambigious at all.
Either way you state it, saying she would be pissed is wrong.
Not really. Plenty of people have found lots of reasons to settle Inception one way or the other.
There is NOTHING definitive that says Dottie was beaten. Nothing. And that's ok, because there isn't anything definitive the other way either. But none of it matters because....
The end of the movie is about Dottie's love her sister; the rest, the game, the ball, the glove, means nothing.
Let there be peace on this issue.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 12:24 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:25 pm to Freauxzen
quote:Only when the Dottie did it on purpose crowd admits there is no evidence to support their opinion and they believe this way because of their own personal feelings and interpretations and not because of the events that lead up to the collision.
Let there be peace on this issue.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:27 pm to Freauxzen
Of course Dottie loved her sister, but she would've never thrown it on purpose. And she certainly wouldn't have intentionally fricked over her teammates. No amount of love for her sister would've allowed her to pull that.
She played it completely fair and simply dropped it.
I've never understood the argument that it was intentional. Not when I originally saw it and still not today. It'd be like saying Peyton would've intentionally thrown an INT to secure Eli a Superbowl or something like that (prior to his first and if they'd have ever met in a SB). It just doesn't make sense.
She played it completely fair and simply dropped it.
I've never understood the argument that it was intentional. Not when I originally saw it and still not today. It'd be like saying Peyton would've intentionally thrown an INT to secure Eli a Superbowl or something like that (prior to his first and if they'd have ever met in a SB). It just doesn't make sense.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:29 pm to alajones
that's my point, it doesn't contradict each other because:
she loved her sister more than the game, which caused her to drop it on purpose, which caused her sister to win, which caused her to smile, which... caused her to only play one year of baseball because she was happy and satisfied. if she didn't feel fulfilled she would've played another year.
she loved her sister more than the game, which caused her to drop it on purpose, which caused her sister to win, which caused her to smile, which... caused her to only play one year of baseball because she was happy and satisfied. if she didn't feel fulfilled she would've played another year.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:32 pm to alajones
quote:
Only when the Dottie did it on purpose crowd admits there is no evidence to support their opinion and they believe this way because of their own personal feelings and interpretations and not because of the events that lead up to the collision.
There isn't any evidence to support her dropping it.
And there isn't evidence supporting her not dropping it either.
And it's settled. Woohoo!
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:37 pm to Freauxzen
quote:ORLY?
And there isn't evidence supporting her not dropping it either.
The facts are:
-Dottie came back to the series for the 7th and final game. The assumption is that she came back because she wanted to win, not make sure here little sister's ego get a boost. If you want to call that speculation, then okay. But she did come back for the 7th game.
-Dottie is facing Kit in the top of the 9th and hits in 2 go ahead runs against her little sister. Logic will tell you that if she wanted to let her sister win, she could have done it here. But she didn't.
-When Kit is up to bat, Dottie tells Ellen Sue that she can't lay off of the high ones. Again the logical conclusion here is she wants her to strike out, and isn't trying to boost her ego.
-So Kit hits the ball, ties the game, but knowing there will be a play at the plate, still advances toward home ignoring the 3rd base coach. Dottie doesn't realize this until she has already rounded third base and is heading home.
-At this point, if Dottie wanted her to win, she could let the throw home get by her or bobble the ball around a little; but instead she makes a clean catch and turns to face Kit with the intention of tagging her.
-Now, the ONLY time Dottie could have made the decision to let Kit score is at this moment. Because at no other point before this does she give any inclination that she wants Kit to win the game.
So the "Dottie did it on purpose" crowd would have us all believe that right here, with no previous inclination from the movie, and nothing afterward that would draw you to that conclusion, Dottie dropped the ball on purpose.
This is a completely speculative opinion and is not based on any facts or events that lead up to the collision.
What really happened was, Kit turned the corner against her coaches commands, bulled Dottie over, and finally beat her big sister. Dottie smiles at her because she is happy for her.
I realize that some of you will still disagree, and it makes you feel good to say that Dottie did it on purpose. But you are not giving any credit to Kit for doing it on her own, and you are not thinking logically.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:41 pm to alajones
This is the only thing that irks me in this whole debate.
The whole lead-up to the drop supports her NOT dropping the ball on purpose.
The "dropping the ball on purpose" crowd is putting forth their gut feelings. And they refuse to admit it.
I don't care what you believe - but just say it's how you feel instead of an objective conclusion.
The whole lead-up to the drop supports her NOT dropping the ball on purpose.
The "dropping the ball on purpose" crowd is putting forth their gut feelings. And they refuse to admit it.
I don't care what you believe - but just say it's how you feel instead of an objective conclusion.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 12:52 pm to alajones
quote:
-Dottie came back to the series for the 7th and final game. The assumption is that she came back because she wanted to win, not make sure here little sister's ego get a boost. If you want to call that speculation, then okay. But she did come back for the 7th game.
-Dottie is facing Kit in the top of the 9th and hits in 2 go ahead runs against her little sister. Logic will tell you that if she wanted to let her sister win, she could have done it here. But she didn't.
-When Kit is up to bat, Dottie tells Ellen Sue that she can't lay off of the high ones. Again the logical conclusion here is she wants her to strike out, and isn't trying to boost her ego.
-So Kit hits the ball, ties the game, but knowing there will be a play at the plate, still advances toward home ignoring the 3rd base coach. Dottie doesn't realize this until she has already rounded third base and is heading home.
-At this point, if Dottie wanted her to win, she could let the throw home get by her or bobble the ball around a little; but instead she makes a clean catch and turns to face Kit with the intention of tagging her.
Facts in bold. The rest is personal speculation, placing your own intentions on the movie. As are the other people doing who say she dropped it.
That's ok, the ball, dropping it or not, doesn't matter.
quote:
This is a completely speculative opinion and is not based on any facts or events that lead up to the collision.
It's all speculation, that's why you go to the point of the film, so what's the point?
quote:
I realize that some of you will still disagree, and it makes you feel good to say that Dottie did it on purpose. But you are not giving any credit to Kit for doing it on her own, and you are not thinking logically.
Don't fail by telling people what you think they should, or why they feel some way. That's just more speculation.
The question is then:
Who is the hero of the movie? Who is the movie about?
It doesn't matter what Kit did, because Kit didn't go through any change as a character, she isn't the hero.
So all of our relevant discussion are about Dottie. Beyond her relationship to Dottie, Kit is inconsequential to the point of the movie. It's about Dottie's change, not Kitt's, because Kitt doesn't have one.
So the movie is either about:
1) Dottie playing to win and realizing in the end that it's ok to lose, because that's not what's important anymore.
2) Dottie dropping the ball realizing that her sister's happiness is more important than the game. Dottie' drop was a SACRIFICE, one of the most important elements of a hero's change.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 1:12 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:00 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
So the movie is either about:
1) Dottie playing to win and realizing in the end that it's ok to lose.
2) Dottie dropped the ball and then realized that her sister's happiness is more important than the game.
Both.
She was halfway home and her play reflected it. Nothing was premeditated. She wasn't as invested as Kit in the end. She was the best no longer.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 1:01 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:08 pm to Zamoro10
quote:
Nothing was premeditated. She wasn't as invested as Kit in the end.
Why does Dottie dropping the ball HAVE to be premeditated? It seems those who believe she didn't are forcing this on everyone else.
I'm completely comfortable with her returning to the game, playing every inning wanting to win, and then just realizing it's not important and giving Kitt her moment. There's nothing wrong with that. In that case is clear, her sister is more important than everything else.
I'm also comfortable saying, both sides have good points, let's agree that Dottie loves her sister and move on. Dropping the ball doesn't matter in the end.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 1:11 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:12 pm to Freauxzen
""Avoid the clap" - Jimmy Dugan"
"That's Good Advice!"
"That's Good Advice!"
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:18 pm to Freauxzen
wow, this is a looong thread. I don't have time to read it all, but I thought I'd give my vote to:
Dottie dropped it on purpose.
and here's why:
What does dottie not dropping it on purpose reveal about the story and characters?....not much. That her sister after being worse than dottie her whole life suddenly upped her big sis on the biggest stage? Maybe if Kit was the main protagonist, and they had a montage of her training and getting better...
but they don't. Dottie is the main protagonist. The movie mainly follows her. By her dropping the ball, it tells us that she's grown as a character, to see that it means more to her to see her sister finally win than to have herself win the game. Her whole life, she never gave her sis special treatment or let her win, dottie and only dottie had all the success and attention. There are scenes where they fight about it. The ending of her dropping it brings conclusion to her character and the movie.
If Dottie dropped in on accident, then we all just wasted 2 hours of our life watching a meaningless set up to happenstance ending. Everything we'd learned about the characters suddenly means nothing.
Dottie dropped it on purpose.
and here's why:
What does dottie not dropping it on purpose reveal about the story and characters?....not much. That her sister after being worse than dottie her whole life suddenly upped her big sis on the biggest stage? Maybe if Kit was the main protagonist, and they had a montage of her training and getting better...
but they don't. Dottie is the main protagonist. The movie mainly follows her. By her dropping the ball, it tells us that she's grown as a character, to see that it means more to her to see her sister finally win than to have herself win the game. Her whole life, she never gave her sis special treatment or let her win, dottie and only dottie had all the success and attention. There are scenes where they fight about it. The ending of her dropping it brings conclusion to her character and the movie.
If Dottie dropped in on accident, then we all just wasted 2 hours of our life watching a meaningless set up to happenstance ending. Everything we'd learned about the characters suddenly means nothing.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:29 pm to CocomoLSU
quote:
I've never understood the argument that it was intentional. Not when I originally saw it and still not today.
I've never understood the argument that it was NOT intentional. The scene earlier in the movie showed that Dottie could hold onto the ball.
quote:
It'd be like saying Peyton would've intentionally thrown an INT to secure Eli a Superbowl or something like that (prior to his first and if they'd have ever met in a SB). It just doesn't make sense.
Peyton would have never needed a scout to find him. Peyton would have taken a train to try out for Mr. Harvey's league on his own dime. Peyton would have never left the team mid-season. Peyton is driven by football, and would do anything to play the game. Dottie was very good at baseball/softball, but she had other interest. She quit the league after 1 season (really before the end of the 1st season). Please don't compare Dottie to Peyton Manning.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:36 pm to CocomoLSU
I'm sorry.
This movie is about Dottie's relationship with her sister and nothing else. Everything about this movie is about the build where Dottie decides to move on with her life, let her sister step her out of shadow.
there's a moment when kit is sobbing in the dugout and dottie is looking at her and she makes her decision.
jimmy looks at dottie and understands what he's done. and it's part of his character's arc that he respects her enough to let it be what it is.
the movie's arc is incomplete if dottie doesn't do this on purpose. every protagonist has to have growth and change or else there is no movie. the change is dottie's relinquishing her life of competitiveness and sibling rivalry. Of listening to her sister's needs and finally acquiescing. of already knowing she was the best player in the league, and letting that knowledge be enough. There are countless movies where the main character and protagonist sacrifices for another character. this is one of them.
Kit and Dottie to exchange.
"I got you into this league goddammit. I didn't even want to be in this stupid league."
"then WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?"
Dottie is a prideful, hard character from jump street. She's an inhuman machine on the ball field. This is her change. She becomes human. She becomes a sister. if kit just beats her, then dottie's character arc is incomplete. she's still the competitive cutthroat ball player she always was. she was just beaten. but if she drops it, then she LEARNS something. that's what movies and character development are all about. Penny Marshall is also a woman. This is the story and why the movie ends and begins with the sisters being sisters. With old dottie telling her oldest grandson to take it easy on the youngest grandson.
anybody who thinks she didn't drop the ball on purpose is thinking from a sports perspective instead of a MOVIE perspective. this is a movie. those saying it ruins the movie are missing the point entirely.
coke's gonna say i'm being elitist again, but everything from a movie/storytelling standpoint says it's entirely incomprehensible that she didn't drop it on purpose.
This movie is about Dottie's relationship with her sister and nothing else. Everything about this movie is about the build where Dottie decides to move on with her life, let her sister step her out of shadow.
there's a moment when kit is sobbing in the dugout and dottie is looking at her and she makes her decision.
jimmy looks at dottie and understands what he's done. and it's part of his character's arc that he respects her enough to let it be what it is.
the movie's arc is incomplete if dottie doesn't do this on purpose. every protagonist has to have growth and change or else there is no movie. the change is dottie's relinquishing her life of competitiveness and sibling rivalry. Of listening to her sister's needs and finally acquiescing. of already knowing she was the best player in the league, and letting that knowledge be enough. There are countless movies where the main character and protagonist sacrifices for another character. this is one of them.
Kit and Dottie to exchange.
"I got you into this league goddammit. I didn't even want to be in this stupid league."
"then WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?"
Dottie is a prideful, hard character from jump street. She's an inhuman machine on the ball field. This is her change. She becomes human. She becomes a sister. if kit just beats her, then dottie's character arc is incomplete. she's still the competitive cutthroat ball player she always was. she was just beaten. but if she drops it, then she LEARNS something. that's what movies and character development are all about. Penny Marshall is also a woman. This is the story and why the movie ends and begins with the sisters being sisters. With old dottie telling her oldest grandson to take it easy on the youngest grandson.
anybody who thinks she didn't drop the ball on purpose is thinking from a sports perspective instead of a MOVIE perspective. this is a movie. those saying it ruins the movie are missing the point entirely.
coke's gonna say i'm being elitist again, but everything from a movie/storytelling standpoint says it's entirely incomprehensible that she didn't drop it on purpose.
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