re: HIMYM VS FRIENDS

I have only watched FRIENDS in isolation and never in order.

HIMYM I watched from the first episode.

What I like about HIMYM is there are some episodes that are so amazing I can watch them over and over again. The Murtaugh one gets me every time, and so does the bracket as well as the perfect week. I think Marshall is the real star of the show, and really the one I identify with (attorney, loyal, sometimes small town in a big city)

Are there episodes of friends that don't move the plot along at all but are legit amazing? My favorite episodes of HIMYM aren't plot movers

Both are two of the worst shows to ever be on television

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The series ends with them in jail, convicted of some bullshite charge, and while it all very meta and very clever, it is an incredibly idiotic way to end a series if that series includes characters who are actually normal human beings like in Friends.

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Exactly. And even the final consequence of their actions isn't really a consequence. It was fake jail, and I didn't walk away from the finale thinking they had been punished. It felt like an unreal bit.

And, yes, the point of a sitcom is to be funny. And I think Seinfeld lost the funny too often in its quest to be clever. Seinfeld is a show that when given the choice, would rather be called smart than funny. Friends would rather be called funny. HIMYM would rather be called clever, and a lot of its callbacks, while creative, weren't always fully formed jokes but more "Hey! Remember this thing we did that one time?"

I really liked HIMYM, but it's cleverness started to be a bit of a drag on the comedy. I don't hate Seinfeld, but I don't put it anywhere near my personal top sitcoms. I just found the praise for it to be over the top, and I did find its later mean-spiritedness to be absolutely exhausting (though I will always love Jerry Stiller yelling about anything).

What's odd is that Friends didn't launch a lot of clones. Really, there's just HIMYM. But it hasn't really been that influential in how sitcoms are made, which is a shame. It feels like writers have forgotten how to write characters who all like each other hanging out and having situations which lead to comedy. It's like all of TV land needs to go to a How To Write a Sitcom course. (which was one of the virtues of Happy Endings, which I never liked as much as I wanted to like it).

HIMYM is essentially Friends with the worst parts of Seinfeld wired into its DNA.

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Baloo

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Doing two things he normally doesn't do...sort of Derail, and tick some people off

However....

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Exactly. And even the final consequence of their actions isn't really a consequence. It was fake jail, and I didn't walk away from the finale thinking they had been punished. It felt like an unreal bit.

And, yes, the point of a sitcom is to be funny. And I think Seinfeld lost the funny too often in its quest to be clever. Seinfeld is a show that when given the choice, would rather be called smart than funny. Friends would rather be called funny. HIMYM would rather be called clever, and a lot of its callbacks, while creative, weren't always fully formed jokes but more "Hey! Remember this thing we did that one time?"

I really liked HIMYM, but it's cleverness started to be a bit of a drag on the comedy. I don't hate Seinfeld, but I don't put it anywhere near my personal top sitcoms. I just found the praise for it to be over the top, and I did find its later mean-spiritedness to be absolutely exhausting (though I will always love Jerry Stiller yelling about anything).

What's odd is that Friends didn't launch a lot of clones. Really, there's just HIMYM. But it hasn't really been that influential in how sitcoms are made, which is a shame. It feels like writers have forgotten how to write characters who all like each other hanging out and having situations which lead to comedy. It's like all of TV land needs to go to a How To Write a Sitcom course. (which was one of the virtues of Happy Endings, which I never liked as much as I wanted to like it).

HIMYM is essentially Friends with the worst parts of Seinfeld wired into its DNA.

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That's getting things back on track in a pretty good way.

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What's odd is that Friends didn't launch a lot of clones. Really, there's just HIMYM. But it hasn't really been that influential in how sitcoms are made, which is a shame. It feels like writers have forgotten how to write characters who all like each other hanging out and having situations which lead to comedy. It's like all of TV land needs to go to a How To Write a Sitcom course. (which was one of the virtues of Happy Endings, which I never liked as much as I wanted to like it).

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Bingo here.

And is it odd at all that people, probably younger people, prefer characters who aren't fully formed, and aren't really characters?

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What's odd is that Friends didn't launch a lot of clones

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This is just inaccurate. Friends launched a massive number of 20 and 30 something friends in New York, or other big cities, shows.

Most failed miserably. Some had a modicum of success (e.g. Happy Endings, Two Guys a Girl and a Pizza Place). Only one had tremendous success (HIMYM). But I remember listening to some interview of a major TV writer and he was talking about how, during and after Friends' run, everyone was trying to get their version of Friends off the ground and that's why he went a different direction.

It's one of the most influential shows in TV history.

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I was a HUGE HIMYM fan, and still am. However, for whatever reason the ending has made the reruns almost unwatchable to me. To know it ends up Ted and Robin, with the mother being a mere pawn, it makes random episodes impossible for me to watch. I know that sounds stupid but it is what it is

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Even more sad, in her short screen time, she as an extremely good character. That's maybe the worst part. She seemed more real in what 5 or 6 episodes, than most characters had throughout the run.

I should say it hasn't spawned any successful clones. Friends changed the pitch meeting, but not what actually is on TV. None of the Friends clones survived, save HIMYM. It didn't have any influence really because there isn't a large wave of successful shows in its wake.

Heck, Dharma and Greg is more influential in that it established the Chuck Lorre formula. And he went on to write more shows in that formula.

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I should say it hasn't spawned any successful clones. Friends changed the pitch meeting, but not what actually is on TV. None of the Friends clones survived, save HIMYM. It didn't have any influence really because there isn't a large wave of successful shows in its wake.

Heck, Dharma and Greg is more influential in that it established the Chuck Lorre formula. And he went on to write more shows in that formula.

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I don't know, man. Happy Endings, My Boys, HIMYM, New Girl, Two Guys a Girl and a Pizza Place all have multiple seasons, and there's A to Z, Marry Me, even Mulaney to some degree.

That said, they're all descended from Cheers.

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I think Seinfeld lost the funny too often in its quest to be clever. Seinfeld is a show that when given the choice, would rather be called smart than funny.

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You repeat this theme a few times in this thread, but I'm still trying to grasp concrete examples on what you mean exactly. If you were referencing certain themed episodes of Community, or the simpsons episode they did in 3D/real life, or the family guy/simpsons crossover, or S4 of AD where the same storylines are seen from different perspectives, etc....I'd understand it. Those are deviations from the norm and are all kind of "out there". 99% of seinfeld episodes followed the same formula where the 4 get involved in something (be it as a group together, or all 4 separately) and it's typically resolved in 30 minutes. Backwards episode was the only one they did that was REALLY a "ok, let's think of some crazy episode so we can display how smart we are" type of situation. So I'm very curious on why you keep thinking seinfeld was on some "quest to be clever".

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Friends didn't launch a lot of clones.

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A group of 30somethings that all hang out in a big city, barely appear to do any actual work, and have one main hangout spot? Those shows are a dime a dozen.

My favorite HIMYM episodes are The Playbook, the Robin Sparkles episodes, and Murtaugh