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Message
Binge-watching Babylon 5
Posted on 6/9/18 at 10:20 pm
Posted on 6/9/18 at 10:20 pm
I loved this back in the day, it's really been awhile since I watched it with any intent or structure.
Really amazing the thought that went into this. 3 episodes in, and I see Easter eggs everywhere. The tale was that J. Michael Straczynski was assured that the show was going to run through it's completion before he got started, so he wrote it out start to finish before the first scene was shot.
It definitely seems like that; there are some questionable acting, but the plot is dialed in from the very first episode and doesn't waver. There are no throwaway scenes at all; things tie in early (you might not know it the first time you watch, but on rewatches it's a joy to have some casual mention of something you know is coming 3 seasons later). Psycorps, the Earth elections, the Mimbari, the Vorlons, the Centauri-Narn conflict (amazing to see the Centauri portrayed as the sympathetic victims early on)... all well-conceived from the beginning.
I wish we could have series or movies designed like this now (Marvel approaches it, while Star Wars is a mess).
Now, the effects are severely dated visually, but also surprisingly well-thought out too. My son commented during an early deployment of fighters- "hey dad, that's actually how things are supposed to move in space".
They drift with inertia, but can spin or pivot to track a target in any direction (and there's no sound at all, just the background music). To me, the realism of the physics makes up for the early 90's CGI.
If you haven't seen it, it's definitely worth a watch. Some campy acting at times, but an extremely ambitious and tight story throughout.
Really amazing the thought that went into this. 3 episodes in, and I see Easter eggs everywhere. The tale was that J. Michael Straczynski was assured that the show was going to run through it's completion before he got started, so he wrote it out start to finish before the first scene was shot.
It definitely seems like that; there are some questionable acting, but the plot is dialed in from the very first episode and doesn't waver. There are no throwaway scenes at all; things tie in early (you might not know it the first time you watch, but on rewatches it's a joy to have some casual mention of something you know is coming 3 seasons later). Psycorps, the Earth elections, the Mimbari, the Vorlons, the Centauri-Narn conflict (amazing to see the Centauri portrayed as the sympathetic victims early on)... all well-conceived from the beginning.
I wish we could have series or movies designed like this now (Marvel approaches it, while Star Wars is a mess).
Now, the effects are severely dated visually, but also surprisingly well-thought out too. My son commented during an early deployment of fighters- "hey dad, that's actually how things are supposed to move in space".
They drift with inertia, but can spin or pivot to track a target in any direction (and there's no sound at all, just the background music). To me, the realism of the physics makes up for the early 90's CGI.
If you haven't seen it, it's definitely worth a watch. Some campy acting at times, but an extremely ambitious and tight story throughout.
8
Posted on 6/9/18 at 11:09 pm to Scoob
A favorite show of mine back in the day. 
Posted on 6/10/18 at 12:22 am to Scoob
Love that show
Posted on 6/10/18 at 12:31 am to Scoob
I've been re-watching it too
Gotta like how well the plot was laid out in the 1st 4 seasons; nice change from shows like LOST that came later and were a bit uneven story-wise since they didn't plan things out.
Wish the CGI held up better but it was the early to mid 90s; it's kinda the name of the game; especially when it wasn't as well funded as say DS9.
Gotta like how well the plot was laid out in the 1st 4 seasons; nice change from shows like LOST that came later and were a bit uneven story-wise since they didn't plan things out.
Wish the CGI held up better but it was the early to mid 90s; it's kinda the name of the game; especially when it wasn't as well funded as say DS9.
Posted on 6/10/18 at 10:42 am to Scoob
Controversy here but frick it I prefer Babylon 5 to any of the Star Treks. I love Star Trek but the story arc of Babylon 5 was just great.
Posted on 6/10/18 at 1:06 pm to bbrownso
quote:
nice change from shows like LOST that came later
Though Babylon 5 and Lost had at least one thing in common.
Posted on 6/10/18 at 7:10 pm to PsychTiger
I love B5 and ds9. B5 is my goat sci fi series of all time. Top 8 or so series in general for me.
This post was edited on 6/10/18 at 7:11 pm
Posted on 6/10/18 at 8:16 pm to Scoob
B5 was effectively a Star Trek product - Paramount and the Star Trek muckity mucks just didn't buy it - and it turned out to be too good not to get made by somebody.
While I think of it as roughly equal to DS9 (each had strengths and weaknesses), it is therefore 2a (or 2b) to Star Trek:TOS as my second favorite "Trek" series.
I agree with most of your comments. Drop off in acting (at least in spots) has to be conceded because that was during the time when television was considered "slumming" for true "actors" - Jurasik (Londo) and Katsulas (G'Kar) make up for almost any shortcomings - considering they were in makeup/prosthetics (and Jurasik having to essentially create an accent and stick to it), their non-verbal abilities - certainly on par or exceeds any science fiction acting, film or television, we've seen outside of Leonard Nimoy or, maybe, Brent Spiner.
And the story was an incredible one - just as Star Trek (particularly TOS and TNG) followed the "classic liberal" ideology, so did BS5 to great effect - like if we went back in time to 1946 and asked the victorious allies what the future would look like. B5 got so many things right, it is easy to overlook the flaws (just as it is for me to do with Star Trek.)
While I think of it as roughly equal to DS9 (each had strengths and weaknesses), it is therefore 2a (or 2b) to Star Trek:TOS as my second favorite "Trek" series.
I agree with most of your comments. Drop off in acting (at least in spots) has to be conceded because that was during the time when television was considered "slumming" for true "actors" - Jurasik (Londo) and Katsulas (G'Kar) make up for almost any shortcomings - considering they were in makeup/prosthetics (and Jurasik having to essentially create an accent and stick to it), their non-verbal abilities - certainly on par or exceeds any science fiction acting, film or television, we've seen outside of Leonard Nimoy or, maybe, Brent Spiner.
And the story was an incredible one - just as Star Trek (particularly TOS and TNG) followed the "classic liberal" ideology, so did BS5 to great effect - like if we went back in time to 1946 and asked the victorious allies what the future would look like. B5 got so many things right, it is easy to overlook the flaws (just as it is for me to do with Star Trek.)
This post was edited on 6/10/18 at 8:17 pm
Posted on 6/11/18 at 5:34 am to Scoob
quote:Michael O'Hare (Sinclair) seemed to act a little stiff and was replaced by Bruce Boxleitner (Sheridan) in the second season. It turns out that O'Hare was suffering from serious mental illness, which is part of why his character's story ark took the path that it did.
there are some questionable acting
Claudia Christian (Ivanova) also acted a little stiff in the first season. I always figured this was an attempt to portray the command staff as serious career military personnel. Andrea Thompson (Talia Winters) and Patricia Tallman (Lyta Alexander) both had some pretty bad acting, and you can't just mark it down as a telepath thing because Walter Koenig's character (Bester) was hilarious.
The season five additions (Byron the telepath cult guy and Lochley the Ivanova replacement) weren't great, and some of the actors in the pilot (Sinclair's love interest, the pre-Ivanova command lady, and the doctor stand out in memory) and the movies (pretty much every character) were pretty bad. Some of the other season one characters (Ironheart the telepath, most of the characters in TKO, and the soulhunters in general) weren't great either.
Crusade was doomed to fail after Office Space came out. Regardless of WB screwing with Strazinski, I could never buy Bill Lumberg as the main captain character (Gideon).
Posted on 6/11/18 at 6:52 am to CrazyTigerFan
quote:
Patricia Tallman
To be fair, she was a converted stuntwoman. She did stunts for TNG and DS9, too.
quote:
the soulhunters in general
W. Morgan Sheppard and Martin Sheen played 2 of the more prominent soul hunters and I think, in particular, Sheppard was fantastic in the Season 1 episode, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 7:46 am to Scoob
There's a massive drop off for the final season, IMHO, but the first three seasons are awesome space opera.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:33 am to CrazyTigerFan
quote:Just from remembering the story arc, it sure seems that Sinclair always had to leave, and Sheridan always had to come in. I don't see how they could do the storyline differently (spoiler mentions- Valen and Starkiller).
Michael O'Hare (Sinclair) seemed to act a little stiff and was replaced by Bruce Boxleitner (Sheridan) in the second season. It turns out that O'Hare was suffering from serious mental illness, which is part of why his character's story ark took the path that it did.
If that was Plan B, it actually helped out. I can't imagine how different it would have been without those changes.
And from an acting perspective, I knew Bruce Boxleitner from Scarecrow and Mrs King, so adding him gave the show a little boost that way (gave us a recognizable lead).
A brief commentary on Sinclair/O'Hare: just watched the episode where they forced him to remember The Line. He is stated to be 39 yrs old at the time. I'm older than that, and to be honest, it really appears that he was older than I am now.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 12:18 pm to Scoob
Would absolutely love for this to be somehow done again. I know they tried something new with Crusade after “A Call To Arms”, but it was like Firefly where the episodes were released out of order and without a resolution.
I know they wouldn’t be able to capture the magic the original cast had(which really hit its stride after the first season and a half), but I thought SyFy was ready to jump on it after TNT discontinued the series. Although it had a definite end and resolution, it had so much universe building potential. I guess with SyFy running 2(eventually 3) different Stargate series along with Battlestar it was a bit too much. I liked Legend of The Rangers, and thought they were going somewhere after that.
Oh well, it looks to have slipped into the same unwakeable coma that plagued Firefly....only remembered in Fandom, and too late to reboot.
I know they wouldn’t be able to capture the magic the original cast had(which really hit its stride after the first season and a half), but I thought SyFy was ready to jump on it after TNT discontinued the series. Although it had a definite end and resolution, it had so much universe building potential. I guess with SyFy running 2(eventually 3) different Stargate series along with Battlestar it was a bit too much. I liked Legend of The Rangers, and thought they were going somewhere after that.
Oh well, it looks to have slipped into the same unwakeable coma that plagued Firefly....only remembered in Fandom, and too late to reboot.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 1:16 pm to TechTiger
quote:
I liked Legend of The Rangers, and thought they were going somewhere after that.
It was okay, though it always bugged me the way they piloted the ships in that series. Seemed lame.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 1:18 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
B5 was effectively a Star Trek product - Paramount and the Star Trek muckity mucks just didn't buy it - and it turned out to be too good not to get made by somebody
Especially considering the B5 showrunner originally pitched it to Paramount first. Coincidentally(if you can call it that), DS9 was developed shortly after. Given it had the Star Trek pedigree, it was immensely more popular when it came out. Although I enjoy DS9(moreso than TNG in some instances), I think the depth of story in B5 is far superior.
I think that J. Michael Straszinski sued Paramount for stealing his his idea. Don’t think he got anywhere with that though.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 1:19 pm to PsychTiger
quote:
It was okay, though it always bugged me the way they piloted the ships in that series. Seemed lame.
Yeah that was dumb. The story building was cool though.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 1:48 pm to Scoob
I'd love for Netflix, Hulu, or Amazon to do a re boot with some real money and actors behind it. The acting and the special effects were by far the weak points in the show. But it was a great story, and had some good character development.
Posted on 6/21/18 at 1:39 pm to AA77
Ok, "BINGE WATCHING" isn't the correct term, as I'm still just only late into the 2nd season now. 
As it's been a long time since I saw it on a TV, some comments:
-storyline is more concise than I remembered, there really are no wasted episodes. Even the apparent throwaways have plenty of info in them.
-"money" is mentioned quite a bit, something I didn't remember. Someone in a recent Star Trek thread about Patrick Stewart returning, made a comment about Star Fleet not paying their soldiers enough to retire. Well, that concept is approached somewhat in B5-
They have a dock worker strike episode, complaining over lack of pay. I thought that was a throwaway episode, but since then we've seen currency and income brought up a good bit.
It's the reason there are so many lurkers, they come and can't afford to leave.
Sheridan gets himself and Ivanova locked out of their quarters because he refuses to pay the extra 30 credits a week to live in one so large (this is a "new" cost, and follows Sheridan's first episode where he comments on how nice and large his quarters are. So the gov sets the hook and tries to then get money back from him).
The doctor bets a fighter pilot 30 credits on a baseball game (World Series), and comments that he's gonna eat nice on that money.
Just saw the Nightwatch episode, where Zach agrees to join up because he'll get 50 extra credits a week "to do what he already does".
It does seem to add a touch of realism to the mix.
As far as "realism", viewing- it's interesting to note this was produced in 15x9 ratio to begin with, even though it was made in the early-mid 90's. It's distracting to watch old shows in a letterbox type screen, and also to watch them blown up. This seems natural to our current format, so it doesn't feel dated.
Quality of recording- I understand this was a byproduct of going from tape to digital, and might be the best Amazon can offer. But there are some serious 'ugh' moments; there's times that the station's rotation is choppy, and I've seen some shots where everything is way below 'standard def'. Blurry images that don't match the quality of an in-game cutscene.
That said, the original CGI quality actually isn't bad (was done on Lightwave). I love the fact that relevant space sequences were actually made, rather than the old habit of showing stock footage. They took the time to 'film' new scenes.
And I still love the various styles and designs of the different factions. Each group has a different aesthetic; the Earth Alliance ships look relatively primitive, the Narn are a lot more streamlined, the Centauri have a certain steampunk style, and the Minbari have organic, fishlike stuff.
As it's been a long time since I saw it on a TV, some comments:
-storyline is more concise than I remembered, there really are no wasted episodes. Even the apparent throwaways have plenty of info in them.
-"money" is mentioned quite a bit, something I didn't remember. Someone in a recent Star Trek thread about Patrick Stewart returning, made a comment about Star Fleet not paying their soldiers enough to retire. Well, that concept is approached somewhat in B5-
They have a dock worker strike episode, complaining over lack of pay. I thought that was a throwaway episode, but since then we've seen currency and income brought up a good bit.
It's the reason there are so many lurkers, they come and can't afford to leave.
Sheridan gets himself and Ivanova locked out of their quarters because he refuses to pay the extra 30 credits a week to live in one so large (this is a "new" cost, and follows Sheridan's first episode where he comments on how nice and large his quarters are. So the gov sets the hook and tries to then get money back from him).
The doctor bets a fighter pilot 30 credits on a baseball game (World Series), and comments that he's gonna eat nice on that money.
Just saw the Nightwatch episode, where Zach agrees to join up because he'll get 50 extra credits a week "to do what he already does".
It does seem to add a touch of realism to the mix.
As far as "realism", viewing- it's interesting to note this was produced in 15x9 ratio to begin with, even though it was made in the early-mid 90's. It's distracting to watch old shows in a letterbox type screen, and also to watch them blown up. This seems natural to our current format, so it doesn't feel dated.
Quality of recording- I understand this was a byproduct of going from tape to digital, and might be the best Amazon can offer. But there are some serious 'ugh' moments; there's times that the station's rotation is choppy, and I've seen some shots where everything is way below 'standard def'. Blurry images that don't match the quality of an in-game cutscene.
That said, the original CGI quality actually isn't bad (was done on Lightwave). I love the fact that relevant space sequences were actually made, rather than the old habit of showing stock footage. They took the time to 'film' new scenes.
And I still love the various styles and designs of the different factions. Each group has a different aesthetic; the Earth Alliance ships look relatively primitive, the Narn are a lot more streamlined, the Centauri have a certain steampunk style, and the Minbari have organic, fishlike stuff.
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