re: Big Brother Season 23 Thread - LIVE Premiere July 7th 8pm ET - CBS

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I’m still waiting for anyone to tell me how a single Cookout member could have improved their odds of winning by going with a different alliance?

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Tiffany could 100% be in better shape if she was loyal to the 4 of DX, Claire, her, and Hannah than the cookout. 3 of the 6 hate her guts, and I get the feeling X doesn't like her much either. X is still in great shape but he has two big weights strapped to his back with Azah and DF. Kyland is self-destructing so that's whatever. DF and Azah would both be out of the game if not for the others carrying them despite hating each other.

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So complain about it being “racist” (if you’re that delicate) if you must, but stop this stupid “throwing away their games for the cause” bullshite because their games are all about as good as they could be and have been since week 1 when they got together.

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Get the frick over yourself. I have argued repeatedly that the CO isn't racist in this thread. I quoted a direct quote from Ky so maybe tell him to stop complaining. He has made the target on his back huge and is at risk of blowing the CO's position because keeping DF is a dumb move on his HOH and the only reason they are keeping him is because of the CO aka "the cause." Ky just severely weakened his personal position for the group.

Yup Ky is just playing a solid game of BB. Completely not acting against his self-interest.

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I’m still waiting for anyone to tell me how a single Cookout member could have improved their odds of winning by going with a different alliance?

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I get what you're saying, but it's also an impossible question to answer because there are no other legitimate alliances in the house. Part of that is because of all the fake alliances the CO formed, but part of it is also the team twist made forming alliances a bit trickier, especially when entire teams were safe in the first few weeks. Like, would Chistian and Alyssa gotten so comfortable without the Kings team they were in never really being in any trouble? Would they have gotten into the Royal Flush alliance had they not been on the Kings with X and SB? I'm not so sure.

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Tiff is DOA once it's down to only CO members. She has said multiple times that she wished she could play the game with Claire and DX instead of Big D and Azah.

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Well that’s dumb because both of those people would have a much better chance of beating her than the two joker floaters.


Again, just because a player says something doesn’t make it true. Their takes on the game aren’t always accurate.


Tiff was always going to be in trouble at this point because she can’t win comps. But neither can the two that want her out, at least she can try to work the votes against two people that have no real relationships in the house.

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The only advantage Tiff has with the CO is to make it to final 6 easier.

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Saying that now after her alliance got her to this point doesn’t mean she shouldn’t have gone with that alliance.

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But once she gets to final 6, she will hit a wall.

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Again, that was always going to be her problem.

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But while there might be more risk of getting taken out before F6 if she wasn't a part of the CO, she would vastly increase her odds of actually being able to advance to the end if she was fully working with DX, Claire, and Hannah.

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I’m not convinced that DF and Azah are going to be able to push the CO to take her out first anyway. They are terrible.

If Ky and X go along with it because she’s a social threat, that same risk would have existed at this point within that other group as well.

She was always going to have a tough time getting to F2 or 3, but CO was her best shot imo.

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Tiff having an alliance with Claire, DX, Hannah, and KY (the Detectives) would put her in a far better end game position since they would all be willing to take her to at least final 4, and maybe even final 2. But her being in an alliance with Big D, Azah, X, Ky, and Hannah is one where none of them will want to take her to Final 4 or Final 2 except Hannah (who hasn't even won a comp yet).

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You list Ky and Hannah as both not being willing to take her to F4 and willing to take her.


DF and Azah are the only two set on taking her out and they are terrible. It isn’t that bad of a position for Tiff honestly, and she still has the support of Claire and DX anyway because of her social game.

It's why I hated the team twist this season. It really stymied the formation of real, true, and dangerous alliances. Even as strong as the CO is, how many strategizing sessions have they all had? I can't think of a single meeting where they were all present. It's all been meetings of 2 or 3, and it is mostly an alliance of people not voting each other out, while occasionally working to shift the HOH's target to someone not in the CO.

It's mind blowing that people that seem as smart as DW and Claire haven't looked around and noticed every POC is still in the house and only 3 of them have been on the block. It should be so obvious to them what is going on. Like, why hasn't Azah's name come up at all as a possible nomination? Why isn't DF freaking out over being on the block?

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Go back and read my post. If she were to stick with DX, Claire, Hannah and Ky, that is at least 3 people that would definitely want to take her to F4, and probably 4 depending on how Ky were to play it. And if the CO wasn't where there loyalty was, that would be an actual alliance.

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If CO wasn’t an alliance Ky would be with SB and DX and Hannah would probably be together. Hard to tell though.

Claire would be her F2 for sure, but again she still has votes to stay from all of them if she’s OTB.


Don’t make the same mistake these HGs seem to and assume the HOH decides who goes home. It’s the votes that count and get odds are still pretty good imo.

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And she would win if she was sitting next to either DX or Claire because the other 5 CO members would vote vote for her

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But this is in a world where CO doesn’t happen right?

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So yes, I truly believe her endgame path (and by end game I mean F4/F2) would be far better if she was the game she wants to play instead of the game she feels she has to play.

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Ok but that is an argument for changing alliances now right? Not eight weeks ago when these complaints started.


Again without CO there is no guarantee any of them are here to begin with.

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Again. Only real problem people have is, “if the shoe was on the other foot!”

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My real problem is Mickie was called racist for putting up “people of color” with David and Ovi

Bayleigh and Davonne claimed it was racist to assume they were in an alliance together and we all saw what happened with Tyler last year because of it

The cookout gets to take advantage of this climate and is playing it as they should since the “non cause” players don’t see it.

But going forward…yikes. If there is always a “cause”, then Big Brother basically needs to have separate seasons for minorities

Again, I have no problem with the cookout and think they are doing nothing wrong. I feel I have to reiterate because even a random poster like me questioning/calling them out can be construed as “racist” in this climate. So can you imagine what it’s like in the house?

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But this is in a world where CO doesn’t happen right?

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I was stating it as if the CO wasn't where their sole loyalty was and only applied to making it to jury (which is what both Tiff and Ky has expressed how they wished they could play the game), not necessarily if there never was a CO formed on day 1. So I still think they'd feel the need to vote for a black player to make history. They talk about it all of the time, and have said that is why DX isn't included (because Jun won back in Season 4), and I think that the same might apply even if the CO wasn't ever formed (but that wasn't really my original argument).

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If CO wasn’t an alliance Ky would be with SB and DX and Hannah would probably be together. Hard to tell though.

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So when the Royal Flush was a thing, there was real game talk about Tiff, Ky, Claire and DX uniting against the Kings when it came time. They called themselves the Detectives. This happened when Tiff and Ky were still struggling with whether or not to stay loyal to the CO after jury. If the CO wasn't their priority (or wasn't a thing at all), then I'm pretty sure the RF would've still been formed, and then the detectives would've also been formed to combat the Kings. And then the Detectives would've pulled in SB and Hannah (just like Level 6 did with JC and Sam.) Ky suggested this to DX during DX's HOH reign, although this time it would've been for real (by DX's reign Tiff had already come up with the duos plan, and they had decided to go full out with the CO). So you would have had the Kings against the Detectives + Hannah & possibly SB (depending on which side she decided to stand with).

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Ok but that is an argument for changing alliances now right? Not eight weeks ago when these complaints started.

Again without CO there is no guarantee any of them are here to begin with.

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Again, I don't see any reason that the Royal Flush wouldn't have still happened if the CO wasn't real. The RF was basically an alliance between the Kings and the Queens (who wanted to bring in DX to even the odds with the Kings) to insure that they targeted the other teams. I think that definitely would've happened with or without the CO.

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It's mind blowing that people that seem as smart as DW and Claire haven't looked around and noticed every POC is still in the house

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I think they are aware of this but they are afraid to be called racists for speaking on it.