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re: 2001: A Space Odyssey turned 50 this week

Posted on 4/14/18 at 8:08 am to
Posted by 88Wildcat
Topeka, Ks
Member since Jul 2017
13932 posts
Posted on 4/14/18 at 8:08 am to
I think I've said this in another thread but this is the only movie I can think of where, in terms of actual story telling, the camera shots are the dialogue and the dialogue is the cinematography. The cinematography tells you everything that is going on and the dialogue only serves as setting and background.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
8906 posts
Posted on 4/14/18 at 8:39 am to
2001 is the greatest film ever made. That does not mean it is the most fun film ever made. It is pure art and has to be enjoyed as such. An incredibly deep and profound work that is still, even now, ahead of its time in some ways. I have seen it many times, and yet it never fails to leave me in awe.
Posted by Parmen
Member since Apr 2016
18317 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 1:23 am to
This thread finally made me rewatch it. Previously, I could only make it to the scene in the room where Floyd gives a speech before getting bored.

Forced myself to watch the entire film and wow... the experience I've denied myself for so long. I'm actually surprised at the ending and how it's never been spoiled for me. Obviously it had a Prometheus effect on me, where I'm left with a bunch of questions, but that's fine with me. Good film. I definitely see how it inspired Star Trek The Motion Picture (which is not a good thing).

Is 2010: The Year We Make Contact or whatever its called worth a watch? I know Kubrick had nothing to do with that film.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
8906 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 1:57 am to
My own personal interpretation of this work of art:

In the beginning, primitive man has no conception of tools. But, thanks to the intervention of the monolith, he is introduced to the concept of tools, and uses the most simple (a club) to defeat a stronger competitor. Jump cut to the future. Man has so thoroughly mastered the concept of tools that he is now effectively reduced to a tool of his own tools. HAL is the ultimate manmade tool. He has little to no need for humans in order to accomplish his purpose. It is not until Dave has faced and overcome his reliance on HAL that the final monolith appears, which transports him to a realm where he must face and overcome his reliance on his most basic tool of all: his own body.

God I love this movie.
Posted by randomways
North Carolina
Member since Aug 2013
12988 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 2:14 am to
quote:


I've tried watching this movie so many times. Once the ape monolith scene ends, I'm bored.


Weird. The entire movie is good, but if we're picking boring parts compared to the others, I'd say the ape monolith scenes are actually the most boring scenes in the movie, at least until the climactic part.
Posted by Radler_the_weinerdog
New Orleans
Member since Oct 2016
1482 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 7:15 am to
It isn’t a terrible movie, but it really doesn’t compare. Check it out if you’re curious, but it will not add anything to your understanding of 2001
Posted by Spock's Eyebrow
Member since May 2012
12300 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 3:38 pm to
quote:

It isn’t a terrible movie, but it really doesn’t compare. Check it out if you’re curious, but it will not add anything to your understanding of 2001



2010 was a very good movie, but it wasn't a groundbreaking, enduring work of art like 2001. It explains what went wrong with HAL, which most people don't understand from just 2001.
Posted by Spock's Eyebrow
Member since May 2012
12300 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 3:49 pm to
quote:

My own personal interpretation of this work of art:

In the beginning, primitive man has no conception of tools. But, thanks to the intervention of the monolith, he is introduced to the concept of tools, and uses the most simple (a club) to defeat a stronger competitor. Jump cut to the future. Man has so thoroughly mastered the concept of tools that he is now effectively reduced to a tool of his own tools. HAL is the ultimate manmade tool. He has little to no need for humans in order to accomplish his purpose. It is not until Dave has faced and overcome his reliance on HAL that the final monolith appears, which transports him to a realm where he must face and overcome his reliance on his most basic tool of all: his own body.


That's really interesting, but HAL was incidental to the main story, which was about human evolution. A sentient computer was not needed to reach the monolith orbiting Jupiter. From the book, the monolith was a device left behind by beings who valued mind above all else, and it spurred evolution when capable species reached certain stages, particularly, dead ends. The apes were at a dead end; they were starving and being preyed upon because they hadn't developed the usage of tools. The monolith managed to put the idea into one of their heads, and that ape ("Moonwatcher") used it to win the water hole squabble with the other ape group and turn the tapirs they had been eating alongside into highly nutritious food for themselves. The monolith on the moon pointed the way to the one orbiting Jupiter, and reaching the latter meant the species might be ready to take the next step. If you remember the coffee table scene between Floyd and the Russkies on the space station, it was polite but still very tense, a civilized version of the apes' water hole dispute. After 4 million years, humans had reached the limitations of tool making but were still fundamentally apes arguing over a resource. Another dead end. The final sequence was about evolving into a superior form, the Star Child, that didn't need tools such as a spaceship and could move through space without tedious docking maneuvers and worrying about gravity. Bowman wasn't "overcoming" anything; he was being transformed by the monolith. Bowman was the new Moonwatcher.
This post was edited on 4/21/18 at 3:51 pm
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
8906 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 6:28 pm to
HAL’s presence in the film is not incidental. He is the villain of the piece, and he does not fill that role by accident. He represents the ultimate achievement of the developmental stage that man entered upon at the encounter with the first monolith: that of the toolmaker. There is no greater tool than HAL. The reliance of the crew upon him is complete - indeed, most of them will sleep during the entire trip to Jupiter. Dave’s struggle with HAL is symbolic of man’s struggle to become more than a toolmaker and tool user. How do you move beyond a reliance on tools when they are what has gotten you to where are?

Once Dave has “defeated” HAL, he is ready for the next stage of his journey. He encounters a monolith in orbit around Jupiter. This monolith, like the earlier one on the moon, is not the final monolith, but is merely a signpost along the way. The final step is to overcome the most intrinsic tool of all: his body. It is not by accident that the apparently unconnected experiences that we observe him have beyond the infinite relate in some way to very basic physical processes, because those are the things he must now learn to overcome. And, finally, at the end as he lays on his deathbed, we see the encounter with the final monolith, the one that ushers him to the next stage of man’s development as an apparently purely mental being. He has, at last, moved beyond all reliance on tools.
Posted by mizzoubuckeyeiowa
Member since Nov 2015
35461 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 6:39 pm to
quote:


Still Maybe the greatest quantum leap in science fiction films and movie effects.


The fascinating thing about this film is that it fails on the human level but succeeds magnificently on a cosmic scale.

Kubrick's universe, and the space ships he constructed to explore it, are simply out of scale with human concerns. The ships are perfect, impersonal machines which venture from one planet to another, and if men are tucked away somewhere inside them, then they get there too.

But the achievement belongs to the machine. And Kubrick's actors seem to sense this; they are lifelike but without emotion, like figures in a wax museum. Yet the machines are necessary because man himself is so helpless in the face of the universe.

There is hardly any character development in the plot, then, as a result little suspense. What remains fascinating is the fanatic care with which Kubrick has built his machines and achieved his special effects. There is not a single moment, in this long film, when the audience can see through the props. The stars look like stars and outer space is bold and bleak.

Some of Kubrick's effects have been criticized as tedious. Perhaps they are, but I can understand his motives. If his space vehicles move with agonizing precision, wouldn't we have laughed if they'd zipped around like props on "Captain Video"? This is how it would really be, you find yourself believing.
Roger Ebert
Posted by prplhze2000
Parts Unknown
Member since Jan 2007
51366 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 7:32 pm to
The plot itself was pretty weak. Actors were amateurish and wooden. Should’ve incorporated more of th book
Posted by Spock's Eyebrow
Member since May 2012
12300 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 7:39 pm to
quote:

HAL’s presence in the film is not incidental.


Of course HAL's a big part of the movie. I said he was incidental to the main story, which was about evolution.

quote:

He is the villain of the piece, and he does not fill that role by accident. He represents the ultimate achievement of the developmental stage that man entered upon at the encounter with the first monolith: that of the toolmaker. There is no greater tool than HAL. The reliance of the crew upon him is complete - indeed, most of them will sleep during the entire trip to Jupiter.


They were kept asleep only because the higher-ups wanted to keep the mission secret from the crew running the ship; ironically, they were worried people would go space-crazy given the nature of the mission and the long journey. Only the sleeping mission specialists and HAL knew the real purpose. And there's still no reason to think a sentient computer was essential to monitoring their life signs or any other aspect of the mission. The mission would have gone on if HAL had never been invented.

quote:

Dave’s struggle with HAL is symbolic of man’s struggle to become more than a toolmaker and tool user.


No, HAL killed the crew because he developed a psychosis resulting from being told to conceal the real purpose of the mission from Bowman and Poole. As HAL himself explained early on, no HAL 9000 computer had ever distorted information or made a mistake, and he seemed to take pride in that, as the interviewer noted. Lying to his "colleagues" created an intolerable conflict, and his solution to his growing paranoia was to try to eliminate the cause and proceed with the mission on his own. He did have the greatest enthusiasm for it, you know.

quote:

How do you move beyond a reliance on tools when they are what has gotten you to where are?


I explained that. Humanity had reached an evolutionary dead end, and the monolith transformed Bowman into the Star Child.

quote:

Once Dave has “defeated” HAL, he is ready for the next stage of his journey.


HAL was not some obstacle in a mythic quest. He was just a malfunctioning piece of technology. The only deeper message to HAL was that he was a cautionary tale for those who would overly trust computers and technology, as if people were capable of creating perfection.

quote:

He encounters a monolith in orbit around Jupiter. This monolith, like the earlier one on the moon, is not the final monolith, but is merely a signpost along the way. The final step is to overcome the most intrinsic tool of all: his body. It is not by accident that the apparently unconnected experiences that we observe him have beyond the infinite relate in some way to very basic physical processes, because those are the things he must now learn to overcome. And, finally, at the end as he lays on his deathbed, we see the encounter with the final monolith, the one that ushers him to the next stage of man’s development as an apparently purely mental being. He has, at last, moved beyond all reliance on tools.


Bowman wasn't "learning" anything in the hotel suite. He was utterly bewildered at where he found himself, and having nothing else to do, he began going through the motions of living. In the book, the transformation began when he turned out the lights to go to bed. The movie showed him (rapidly) aging to try to visually spell out that he was being transformed, ultimately to die and be gloriously reborn the Star Child. He wasn't in that room more than a few hours, and like the viewer, the only thing going through his mind the entire time was, "WTF?"

You've come up with an interesting interpretation of the film, but it's not what Clarke and Kubrick were trying to say. Sorry.
This post was edited on 4/21/18 at 7:56 pm
Posted by Brosef Stalin
Member since Dec 2011
39171 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 8:18 pm to
quote:

Should’ve incorporated more of th book

The book is secondary to the movie. Kubrick hired Clarke to write his story. Clarke had no idea what was going on with the movie.
Posted by Spock's Eyebrow
Member since May 2012
12300 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 9:13 pm to
quote:

The book is secondary to the movie. Kubrick hired Clarke to write his story. Clarke had no idea what was going on with the movie.


Nope. Clarke wrote in my copy’s afterword that novel and movie were developed concurrently with feedback going in both directions. He says he wrote more about it in “The Lost Worlds of 2001,” which I don’t have.
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98584 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 9:17 pm to
Oh

Ver

Ray

Ted
Posted by Brosef Stalin
Member since Dec 2011
39171 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 9:52 pm to
quote:

Regarding some the tensions involved in the writing of the film script, Kubrick was so dissatisfied with the collaboration with Clarke that he approached other writers that could replace him, including Michael Moorcock and J.G. Ballard. But they felt it would be a disloyalty among fellow authors to accept Kubrick's offer

LINK

How could Kubrick have fired Clarke if he wasn't the boss? Kubrick came to Clarke to collaborate on the story but he wanted the movie to be more a visual experience than narrative. That's why he changed things from the book. Clarke didn't know all of the details of the movie until he saw it. Kubrick was more involved with the book than Clarke was with the movie.
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46505 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 9:56 pm to
The cinematography, sound, effects, etc. are amazing especially given when the movie was made. The plot is ok, unique (at the time) but a bit dry. The pace is what keeps it from being one of my favorites. It's a beating to get through after the first watch.

Overall I acknowledge it as a masterpiece of science fiction, but personally it's not one of my favorites.
Posted by Spock's Eyebrow
Member since May 2012
12300 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 10:51 pm to
The first two sentences of the paragraph you quoted are rather informative, and I think should have been quoted, too.

quote:

The screenplay credits were shared whereas the 2001 novel, released shortly after the film, was attributed to Clarke alone. Clarke wrote later that "the nearest approximation to the complicated truth" is that the screenplay should be credited to "Kubrick and Clarke" and the novel to "Clarke and Kubrick".


quote:

How could Kubrick have fired Clarke if he wasn't the boss? Kubrick came to Clarke to collaborate on the story but he wanted the movie to be more a visual experience than narrative. That's why he changed things from the book. Clarke didn't know all of the details of the movie until he saw it. Kubrick was more involved with the book than Clarke was with the movie.


I'm not surprised at all that Kubrick was the boss of his movie. I expect he had many such disagreements in his career, but the bottom line is, he didn't "fire" Clarke. I think it's also important to note that the lack of exposition is the only material way the movie diverges from the book.

BTW, the source material for your Wikipedia quote is not quite as forceful as wiki:

LINK

quote:

I also knew something that I don’t think Arthur ever did: Kubrick was at some point dissatisfied with the collaboration, approaching other writers (including J G Ballard and myself) to work on the film. He knew neither Ballard nor me personally. We refused for several reasons. I felt it would be disloyal to accept.


"At some point dissatisfied" and "approaching to work on" vs "so dissatisfied" and "replace." Who knows what would have happened if they had accepted.
Posted by Brosef Stalin
Member since Dec 2011
39171 posts
Posted on 4/21/18 at 11:03 pm to
LINK
quote:

I must also add a few words here about the creative process of writing 2001's script. The widely held belief is that Arthur C Clarke wrote the book and Kubrick then adapted the book into a film. However, the following quotes indicate a different story.

Kubrick was revising the novel (2001) with Clarke and simultaneously preparing his shooting script … At the end of August Clarke decided that the novel should end with Bowman standing beside an alien ship. Kubrick was not satisfied with this conclusion and the search went on. - p283 Stanley Kubrick by Vincent Lobrutto

Clarke attempted to convince Kubrick that the novel’s manuscript was ready for publication. Kubrick was still unwilling to declare the novel finalized … Clarke firmly stated that he was the writer and should have the clout to pronounce the novel complete. Clarke was frustrated that he had lost $15,000 in commissions while working on the lengthy revisions of the novel. - p298 Stanley Kubrick by Vincent Lobrutto

Clarke was in debt and tried to get a publishing contract signed with Delacorte Press, but Kubrick refused to sign, even after Delacorte had spent $10,000 on the project. Kubrick would immediately praise the new version, then within a few days point out flaws, errors and imperfections until the new prose crumbled into worthless fragments. - p299 Stanley Kubrick by Vincent Lobrutto

Kubrick / Clarke had a 60/40 deal on the book - p310 Stanley Kubrick by Vincent Lobrutto

It's a totally different kind of experience, of course, and there are a number of differences between the book and the movie. The novel, for example, attempts to explain things much more explicitly than the film does, which is inevitable in a verbal medium. The novel came about after we did a 130-page prose treatment of the film at the very outset. This initial treatment was subsequently changed in the screenplay, and the screenplay in turn was altered during the making of the film. But Arthur took all the existing material, plus an impression of some of the rushes, and wrote the novel. As a result, there's a difference between the novel and the film. – Kubrick interviewed by Joseph Gelmis 1969

I think that the divergences between the two works (2001 film and novel) are interesting. Actually, it was an unprecedented situation for someone to do an essentially original literary work based on glimpses and segments of a film he (Arthur C Clarke) had not yet seen in its entirety. – Kubrick interviewed by Joseph Gelmis 1969

Arthur C. Clarke, back in Ceylon, continued to wrangle with Kubrick about the novel, the final text of which the director still refused to approve. Each time Clarke felt sure the script and book were set, Kubrick would cable him for some more dialogue or a new scene, none of which, Clarke claimed, ever found their way into the film. … Kubrick almost certainly did delay the book in order to protect the film. The film took on its own life as it was being made, and Clarke became increasingly irrelevant. Kubrick could probably have shot 2001 from a treatment, since most of what Clarke wrote, in particular some windy voice-overs which explained the level of intelligence reached by the ape men, the geological state of the world at the dawn of man, the problems of life on the Discovery and much more, was discarded during the last days of editing, along with the explanation of HALs breakdown. - p227 / 228 Stanley Kubrick: A Biography by John Baxter

Kubrick wanted to make a sci-fi film before he even hooked up with Clarke. He based his original ideas for 2001 upon a handful of short stories written by clarke, in particular The Sentinel. Kubrick then hired Clarke to work on the film's story with him, but the book was written as the film was being made. Clarke was allowed to view rushes of what had been filmed and based many of the book's details upon what he believed Kubrick's footage was conveying. Kubrick had creative control over the book and so was at liberty to instruct Clarke on how the book should be written. Quite simply, Kubrick was the primary creative force and Clarke was a writer for hire.The story was always the same with Kubrick's collaborations with writers. He would "adapt" an already written novel for the screen in conjunction with the original writer, or in some cases he would simply buy the rights to the story then exclude the original writer, while he brought in a third writer to help him revise the story until it was virtually unreconisable from the original text. This was especially true of The Shining (read the second chapter of my analysis for details of how Kubrick massacred King's story so that he could infuse it with a variety of additional, visually encoded themes that were personal to Kubrick).


Rob Ager has done a ton of research on Kubrick's career and filmography, in particular 2001 and The Shining. He has some great videos on youtube and also writes essays with plenty of sources. This is from his 14 chapter review of 2001.
Posted by Radler_the_weinerdog
New Orleans
Member since Oct 2016
1482 posts
Posted on 5/1/18 at 9:06 pm to
Very good? Nah, not to me. Seen it once and nothing stuck with me. Zero desire to see it again
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