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re: Where did LeBron James rank as a player each year?
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:27 pm to rockchlkjayhku11
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:27 pm to rockchlkjayhku11
quote:
you are gonna get shite on because you're you, but it's 100% accurate that harden was the best player in the league in 17-18
In hindsight, we can use playoff performance too. LeBron had a historically good postseason with two buzzer beating game winners.
Harden got noticeably worse in the postseason and wasn't close to LeBron's level. So, I'd go LeBron in 17-18. Regular season was close and Bron smoked Harden in the postseason.
It's why Boom always starts in on how the West is so much harder to be good against.
1
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:27 pm to Rep520
quote:
We did this thread a while back, but I'm 100% on the Kobe was never #1 team.
There’s been various threads over the years and most of them Lobe was never #1 except on a few Bandwagon Lakers’ lists. It’s the over the top Kobe love since his passing by basketball casuals wanting to put him higher.
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:30 pm to David Ricky
quote:
14-15: top 10 15-16: top 5 16-17: top 10 18-19: top 15 19-20: top 10
quote:
Lmfao
Don't blame me, blame the analytics though Bron was DEFINITELY in the bottom half of the top 15 in the 2019 season
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:37 pm to ThePTExperience1969
Outside of his injury year last year Lebron hasn’t been outside top 3 players in the league in like 13 years. And he’s never been behind Curry. Ever. He’s been number 1 for probably 10/13 of those without question. Harden and KD have claim to the other 3.
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:38 pm to Rep520
Lebron played 7 games against the lowly pacers, yes 7. And got blown out the water by GSW in 4. Most of the games weren’t even closed. to say GOAT wasn’t locked in on D, is an understatement. When harden played his version of Indiana in Minnesota, he took them out in 5 games. Harden went 7 with goat and played the best D in the league in utah.
You gotta look at the whole picture. Lebron playoff stats are skewed by playing a lot of games against terrible teams. Harden make quick work of the lesser teams so he doesn’t get to boost his average against poor teams.
You gotta look at the whole picture. Lebron playoff stats are skewed by playing a lot of games against terrible teams. Harden make quick work of the lesser teams so he doesn’t get to boost his average against poor teams.
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:43 pm to Boomshockalocka
quote:
Lebron played 7 games against the lowly pacers, yes 7. And got blown out the water by GSW in 4. Most of the games weren’t even closed. to say GOAT wasn’t locked in on D, is an understatement. When harden played his version of Indiana in Minnesota, he took them out in 5 games. Harden went 7 with goat and played the best D in the league in utah.
You need to replace Lebron and Harden for Cavs and Rockets
quote:
You gotta look at the whole picture
100%, look above
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:47 pm to rockiee
Harden being vastly superior stats tells us he was the better player and cavs care better with harden than lebron. No chance harden goes to 7 with the pacers, or Gets Swept by GSW.
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:49 pm to Boomshockalocka
quote:
You gotta look at the whole picture. Lebron playoff stats are skewed by playing a lot of games against terrible teams. Harden make quick work of the lesser teams so he doesn’t get to boost his average against poor teams.
PER doesn't get boosted by more games.
Harden vs the Warriors in 17-18:
29-6-5 on 41% shooting, 24% from 3.
LeBron vs the Warriors in 17-18:
34-10-9 on 53% shooting, .333 from 3.
It isn't close.
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:50 pm to LSUTigKyl
quote:
Outside of his injury year last year Lebron hasn’t been outside top 3 players in the league in like 13 years. And he’s never been behind Curry. Ever. He’s been number 1 for probably 10/13 of those without question. Harden and KD have claim to the other 3.
You're probably right, however the stats tell a different story and a lot of really great players broke through during this time corresponding with a decline in LeBron's defensive game, he's still a force to be reckoned with but the gap between him and other top players, even at those points, were not insurmountably great
Posted on 3/31/20 at 1:53 pm to Boomshockalocka
quote:
Harden being vastly superior stats tells us he was the better player
This is better, got to get away from the 1v5 narratives about players. Its a team vs team. It is a trap many novice fans get caught in at times.
quote:
cavs care better with harden than lebron
No, but that doesn't mean that Lebron was the better player in that year. There are so many factors that come into play when you switch players directly like that. Teams are built with those specific players in mind. Houston did a much better job overall with helping Harden than the Cavs did with Lebron. Having said that, some of that is on the players themselves but that is a different debate.
This post was edited on 3/31/20 at 1:55 pm
Posted on 3/31/20 at 2:20 pm to Rep520
quote:
PER doesn't get boosted by more games.
Of course it does
If you play 7 games against a crap team and you only play 20 playoff games total, those 7 games will boost the PER.
If harden was as good as lebron that year, and got to play 7 games against Minnesota, and only 4 against GSW with a few blowouts, his playoff numbers would have been much much better.
This post was edited on 3/31/20 at 2:20 pm
Posted on 3/31/20 at 2:22 pm to Boomshockalocka
I notice you didn't quote the part of the post where LeBron slaughtered Harden vs their common opponent.
That's where your making excuses for Harden falls apart.
That's where your making excuses for Harden falls apart.
Posted on 3/31/20 at 2:31 pm to Boomshockalocka
Wrong.....
Posted on 3/31/20 at 2:37 pm to Rep520
05/06-LeBron made a huge leap and one could argue he was the top player that season, analytics support that claim, however, at the same time, Kobe was UNREAL with his 35-5-4 statline, scoring 81 in a competitive game, leading the Lakers to the Western playoffs with SMUSH PARKER and KWAME BROWN in the rotation, and also functioning as the best defensive player in the league
06/07-step back for LeBron but really came of age in the playoffs obviously, however Kobe was still dominating at an elite level on both sides of the ball and Nash submitted his best season in terms of PER and WS on a championship-contending team that got screwed out of a championship per the enforcement of an egregiously dumb NBA rule, can make arguments any which way but more convinced of Kobe/Nash over LeBron though the margin's not massive
07/08-LeBron rebounds from his relatively underwhelming season the preceding year to lead the league in scoring and achieve the highest PER of his career to that point, however the team's record declines from 50 wins in 07 to 45 wins in 08. Meanwhile CP3 leads an underwhelming New Orleans Hornets team to 57 wins off the heels of Katrina, blows LeBron out in the win share category, leads the league in assists and steals, and achieves all-defense recognition. Got screwed out of the MVP award because the voters wanted Kobe to win at least one despite that Kobe got screwed out of the 06 award despite legendary stats.
13/14-KD was simply UNREAL this season, blew LeBron out in win shares and VORP, exceeded him in PER, and led the league in scoring. LeBron compensated some by leading the Heatles back to the Finals but hard to dispute that KD did not unequivocally OWN this season. YOU DA REAL MVP.
14/15-really stacked season for great players to submit breakout seasons like Davis, Harden, and Curry. CP3 even submitted another tremendous season. Fact of the matter is LeBron didn't even finish top 5 in PER, win shares, and VORP whereas the other players did. LeBron compensated some by leading the Cavs to the Finals while shorthanded but Steph and the Dubs beat him with Steph submitting a great performance that Finals. Hard to argue LeBron was clearly the best player that season.
15/16-goes without saying Steph OWNED this season: leader of record 73-win team, led the league in PER, win shares, and VORP by wide margin, led the league in scoring, 50-40-90 season, and broke the 3 point record. As great as LeBron was in the playoffs and Finals, hard to argue that supplants the historic and incredibly dominant nature of what Steph accomplished this season.
16/17-outside of VORP, Bron doesn't even finish top 5 in PER and win shares with Russ topping PER and Harden topping win shares. One could argue Kawhi was a better player than LeBron this season two-way. Again LeBron submits another great playoff performance in leading the defending champ Cavs to the Finals and submits a great performance in the Finals but people could easily argue others were better than Bron in 2017
06/07-step back for LeBron but really came of age in the playoffs obviously, however Kobe was still dominating at an elite level on both sides of the ball and Nash submitted his best season in terms of PER and WS on a championship-contending team that got screwed out of a championship per the enforcement of an egregiously dumb NBA rule, can make arguments any which way but more convinced of Kobe/Nash over LeBron though the margin's not massive
07/08-LeBron rebounds from his relatively underwhelming season the preceding year to lead the league in scoring and achieve the highest PER of his career to that point, however the team's record declines from 50 wins in 07 to 45 wins in 08. Meanwhile CP3 leads an underwhelming New Orleans Hornets team to 57 wins off the heels of Katrina, blows LeBron out in the win share category, leads the league in assists and steals, and achieves all-defense recognition. Got screwed out of the MVP award because the voters wanted Kobe to win at least one despite that Kobe got screwed out of the 06 award despite legendary stats.
13/14-KD was simply UNREAL this season, blew LeBron out in win shares and VORP, exceeded him in PER, and led the league in scoring. LeBron compensated some by leading the Heatles back to the Finals but hard to dispute that KD did not unequivocally OWN this season. YOU DA REAL MVP.
14/15-really stacked season for great players to submit breakout seasons like Davis, Harden, and Curry. CP3 even submitted another tremendous season. Fact of the matter is LeBron didn't even finish top 5 in PER, win shares, and VORP whereas the other players did. LeBron compensated some by leading the Cavs to the Finals while shorthanded but Steph and the Dubs beat him with Steph submitting a great performance that Finals. Hard to argue LeBron was clearly the best player that season.
15/16-goes without saying Steph OWNED this season: leader of record 73-win team, led the league in PER, win shares, and VORP by wide margin, led the league in scoring, 50-40-90 season, and broke the 3 point record. As great as LeBron was in the playoffs and Finals, hard to argue that supplants the historic and incredibly dominant nature of what Steph accomplished this season.
16/17-outside of VORP, Bron doesn't even finish top 5 in PER and win shares with Russ topping PER and Harden topping win shares. One could argue Kawhi was a better player than LeBron this season two-way. Again LeBron submits another great playoff performance in leading the defending champ Cavs to the Finals and submits a great performance in the Finals but people could easily argue others were better than Bron in 2017
Posted on 3/31/20 at 2:42 pm to ThePTExperience1969
Do you fingers hurt??????
Posted on 3/31/20 at 2:52 pm to dukke v
quote:
Do you fingers hurt??????
does your daughter's a-hole hurt after I've been ramming it the last 4 hours?????
Posted on 3/31/20 at 2:59 pm to Rep520
Against the common opponent lebron got swept. The games weren’t even competitive. Golden state celebrated when they beat Houston, not Cleveland. To say they were not locked in v golden state is an understatement. They slept through that series bc lebron poses 0 challenge. it is like Devin booker scoring 70 on the celtics in a blowout loss. The defense is frankly not locked in when the games are blowouts compared to a right game/series.
Posted on 3/31/20 at 3:13 pm to ThePTExperience1969
My responses:
05-06:
This is a close one. Kobe had his best year. LeBron edged him in PER and had 31.4, 7 and 6 per game.
Tiebreak for me, LeBron had a crappy Cavs roster as well and led them to an overall better year and further in the playoffs.
06-07:
As you said, LeBron took a small step back this year. That said, so did Kobe. Nash...he had a 23.8 PER and didn't make the Finals.
LeBron's Pistons series is legendary. He also led the league in regular season VORP, so it's not like he sucked there. His historic playoffs give him the edge, IMO.
07-08:
I do think CP3 was underrated this year, and it is a conversation between him and LeBron.
LeBron was slightly better in most stats. The East was deep and strong this year and they both lost 7 game semifinal series. LeBron was just better by most stats, albeit slightly, so I go with him here.
13-14:
KD had a very good year, but he's never been particularly close to LeBron as a distributor or defender, IMO. The fact they're otherwise very comparable tends to influence me.
13-14 was as close as they've ever been in distribution, and LeBron still had an advantage. Scoring-wise, LeBron was as efficient as KD, and their PER's are virtually identical. LeBron was better vs the Spurs and made the Finals, so I go LeBron.
14-15:
I think it's simple here. LeBron makes up for a crowded field by dragging the wounded Cavs to the Finals and having maybe the greatest Finals ever to extend the Warriors to 6 with Delly as his second best player.
Yeah, he wasn't top 5 PER, but he missed that by 0.1 PER, and I can't put guys like AD and Westbrook ahead of him, even if they had higher PER's. AD got swept in the first round.
15-16:
I can't give it to Steph over LeBron when LeBron beat Steph heads up in the Finals as Steph had a subpar series.
This is also the Finals where LeBron led both teams in minutes, points, rebounds and assists, which no one else has ever done.
16-17:
Neither Russ or Harden matches LeBron across the board, especially when you consider the playoffs.
LeBron's 33.4-12-10 in the Finals might be the greatest Finals performance ever.
05-06:
This is a close one. Kobe had his best year. LeBron edged him in PER and had 31.4, 7 and 6 per game.
Tiebreak for me, LeBron had a crappy Cavs roster as well and led them to an overall better year and further in the playoffs.
06-07:
As you said, LeBron took a small step back this year. That said, so did Kobe. Nash...he had a 23.8 PER and didn't make the Finals.
LeBron's Pistons series is legendary. He also led the league in regular season VORP, so it's not like he sucked there. His historic playoffs give him the edge, IMO.
07-08:
I do think CP3 was underrated this year, and it is a conversation between him and LeBron.
LeBron was slightly better in most stats. The East was deep and strong this year and they both lost 7 game semifinal series. LeBron was just better by most stats, albeit slightly, so I go with him here.
13-14:
KD had a very good year, but he's never been particularly close to LeBron as a distributor or defender, IMO. The fact they're otherwise very comparable tends to influence me.
13-14 was as close as they've ever been in distribution, and LeBron still had an advantage. Scoring-wise, LeBron was as efficient as KD, and their PER's are virtually identical. LeBron was better vs the Spurs and made the Finals, so I go LeBron.
14-15:
I think it's simple here. LeBron makes up for a crowded field by dragging the wounded Cavs to the Finals and having maybe the greatest Finals ever to extend the Warriors to 6 with Delly as his second best player.
Yeah, he wasn't top 5 PER, but he missed that by 0.1 PER, and I can't put guys like AD and Westbrook ahead of him, even if they had higher PER's. AD got swept in the first round.
15-16:
I can't give it to Steph over LeBron when LeBron beat Steph heads up in the Finals as Steph had a subpar series.
This is also the Finals where LeBron led both teams in minutes, points, rebounds and assists, which no one else has ever done.
16-17:
Neither Russ or Harden matches LeBron across the board, especially when you consider the playoffs.
LeBron's 33.4-12-10 in the Finals might be the greatest Finals performance ever.
Posted on 3/31/20 at 3:32 pm to Rep520
I understand all the stats and advanced stats that are being throw out here but maybe the question being argued here is different from each of us. I think some are stating Lebron was the best basketball player on the planet for a set amount of years. Others are arguing who put up great stats or were the best player on a team that won a lot of games.
You could watch any of the Finals featuring Lebron and Curry and there was never a question who was the better basketball player. Until Durants first title, this was also true. Many guys won MVPs over the years but they weren’t better at basketball than Lebron. The award doesn’t match the actual name.
You could watch any of the Finals featuring Lebron and Curry and there was never a question who was the better basketball player. Until Durants first title, this was also true. Many guys won MVPs over the years but they weren’t better at basketball than Lebron. The award doesn’t match the actual name.
Posted on 3/31/20 at 3:33 pm to PhiTiger1764
quote:
LeBron took over #1 from Kobe around 2008 and remained #1 through about 17-18
FIFY. LeBron wins three straight titles from 08-10 if you swap him and Kobe. KD joined a 73 win team.
eta - He took Boston to 7 games in 08 and was the better player in 09 and 10. MVP with not as great a supporting cast. Giannis is basically reliving what LeBron dealt with in those two years.
This post was edited on 3/31/20 at 3:36 pm
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