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re: What in the world is going down in Waco? (Update: Player found guilty of sexual assault)

Posted on 8/22/15 at 4:19 pm to
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46657 posts
Posted on 8/22/15 at 4:19 pm to
quote:

I think you're viewing the Petersen-Briles conversation from the wrong perspective. You seem to believe Petersen helped find Sam U a school closer to home once he left Boise. Almost like Petersen put a call into Baylor & told Briles he had a kid that was leaving the team to be closer to home. "He's had some problems here at Boise, but he's suffers from Depression & homesickness."
When in reality, I believe Petersen called Briles as soon as he found out Sam U was in the process of transferring to Baylor to WARN Briles about the kid. The call wasn't to help Sam U, but to help Baylor & Briles by informing him this was a bad guy. That's why people are saying Briles is in big trouble.


That's exactly what happened, to believe otherwise requires a shocking level of delusion.
Posted by BeYou
DFW
Member since Oct 2012
6036 posts
Posted on 8/22/15 at 4:21 pm to
quote:

Nothing about this case makes me think Baylor ever took this situation seriously. Not the horrible Title IX investigation (which the email you cited is from). Not the handling of it by the football staff. Not the handling after the fact. It's all been incredibly callous.


I'll agree it was a poor handling of the situation and it certainly can be improved.

We can agree to disagree on the when he should of been off scholarship. You believe he should of been off-scholarship once an indictment was reached. I believe that Baylor restriction from all team activities but allowing him to remain on scholarship was fair until he was found guilty.

quote:

Not the horrible Title IX investigation (which the email you cited is from).


I've also stated earlier in this thread that the investigation was poor, but I do want to mention how limited all colleges are in there investigations. They have no power to subpoena and cannot compel individuals to testify under oath. In this instance, SU roommate lied to Baylor, then when he got on stand the prosecutors tore his story a part with cell phone records. Baylor had didn't have and investigative power to look into his claims.

I also understand that Baylor attempted to obtain the nurse report/rape kit for investigation. Understandable, there are strict HIPAA laws surrounding this. My understanding is that Baylor asked the victim to view them but she wasn't able to provide them. This is something that should of been followed up on and to my understanding wasn't- shame on the internal investigation.

The most concerning part is that the Waco PD, who has investigative powers, looked into this and came to the same conclusion as the Baylor investigation.

I think the biggest point is that we are asking a lot out of these internal investigations, but they don't have the power to truly conduct a thorough and effective investigation. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but you do see these types of investigations failing across the country.

Once again, I have no answers. It is a complicated issue. I just hope that the victim is unconditionally loved and emotionally heals, that the right steps are taking by Baylor, the people that need to be fired are fired (Briles, McCraw, etc), and that in the future Baylor can become a model example of how these cases should be handled.
Posted by tmc94
Member since Sep 2012
11559 posts
Posted on 8/22/15 at 4:40 pm to
quote:

We can agree to disagree on the when he should of been off scholarship. You believe he should of been off-scholarship once an indictment was reached. I believe that Baylor restriction from all team activities but allowing him to remain on scholarship was fair until he was found guilty.


Honestly keeping him on scholarship is fairly unprecedented and likely will be considered a failure of Baylor's responsibilities under Title IX. We'll find out in the certain to come Federal investigation
quote:

The most concerning part is that the Waco PD, who has investigative powers, looked into this and came to the same conclusion as the Baylor investigation.

Yep. This is a serious problem. It appears they leaned on a piss poor Baylor investigation when it should have been the other way around.

I'm not sure it was the most serious failing here but it's right up there. The scary part to me is that most of these failings - the WPD, the Baylor Title IX, the lack of investigation post-indictment - all suggest systemic issues placing athletics above all else in the Waco/Baylor community. IMO some big people need to take the fall or it won't change.
Posted by BeYou
DFW
Member since Oct 2012
6036 posts
Posted on 8/22/15 at 4:41 pm to
quote:

There's a consolidated list floating around of all the players Briles has allowed to play despite violent criminal pasts and indictments.


A good chunk of these aren't violent at all.

Josh Gordon has a mariajuana problem. Fell asleep at Taco Bell drive thru lol. Not Violent.

Lache was suspected of taking money to go to Oregon, not Baylor. How is this violent? Indictment?

Oakman has turned it around. So did Phil Taylor after they both transferred. Taylor was a first round pick by the Browns and Oakman will likely be a first round pick next year. These are some of the success stories you don't hear about.

Rhodes was kicked out of Baylor, now plays for Bowling Green I believe. The list is obviously out-dated.

I don't have the time to go through the rest of the list. Other than Dixon is the biggest dumbass in the world.


Let's not act like this is a Baylor problem too. Violent thuggish criminals are found throughout college football.
This post was edited on 8/22/15 at 4:44 pm
Posted by ecb
Member since Jul 2010
9731 posts
Posted on 8/22/15 at 4:42 pm to
This is Penn state all over again, Baylor didn't want to know.
Posted by BeYou
DFW
Member since Oct 2012
6036 posts
Posted on 8/22/15 at 4:50 pm to
Nvm I answered my own question.
This post was edited on 8/22/15 at 7:02 pm
Posted by UncleFestersLegs
Member since Nov 2010
14262 posts
Posted on 8/23/15 at 12:17 am to
quote:

This is Penn state all over again, Baylor didn't want to know.

After Penn State, nothing surprises me anymore. Willingly condoning the sexual abuse of children because: football. It's sad what we have become.
Posted by XKEnut
Member since Jan 2010
1852 posts
Posted on 8/23/15 at 8:45 am to
These misfits come to BU from all over the country. Is there a Thugs R Us newsletter delivered to Briles? Seriously, where does the guy find them, or do they find him because of his rep?
Posted by Agforlife
Somewhere in the Brazos Valley
Member since Nov 2012
20102 posts
Posted on 8/23/15 at 9:53 am to
LINK


Good read about this
Posted by Arksulli
Fayetteville
Member since Aug 2014
26178 posts
Posted on 8/23/15 at 10:26 am to
quote:

Good read about this


You have to think that the young lady involved in this is getting ready to sue the crap out of Baylor given what happened.
Posted by BeYou
DFW
Member since Oct 2012
6036 posts
Posted on 8/23/15 at 9:11 pm to
quote:

I think you're viewing the Petersen-Briles conversation from the wrong perspective. You seem to believe Petersen helped find Sam U a school closer to home once he left Boise. Almost like Petersen put a call into Baylor & told Briles he had a kid that was leaving the team to be closer to home. "He's had some problems here at Boise, but he's suffers from Depression & homesickness."
When in reality, I believe Petersen called Briles as soon as he found out Sam U was in the process of transferring to Baylor to WARN Briles about the kid. The call wasn't to help Sam U, but to help Baylor & Briles by informing him this was a bad guy. That's why people are saying Briles is in big trouble.


“I was contacted by Coach Petersen at Boise State in spring 2013 and he told me he had a player from Texas who needed to get closer to home and that he thought our program would be a good spot for him,”

That sounds like Petersen made the initial call to Briles looking for a place for Sam U to play.

Also, Sam U high school coach in a radio interview today said that Petersen had contacted him midway through Sam U red shirt freshman year.

“I was told the staff was very concerned about Sam being depressed and violent towards himself and their worries were for him,” Heath said. “Never once did they ever tell me he had struck or hit a female or had a violent encounter with anyone. I spoke with Chris Petersen during Sam’s red shirt freshman year about his depression and insubordination, but I haven’t spoken with Coach Petersen since. -- which seems to back up Briles story.

LINK
Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
148085 posts
Posted on 8/24/15 at 2:55 pm to
Ketch has released his demands. It's only a matter of time now for Art and Baylor

quote:

Two nights ago, while my 17-month-old daughter nuzzled closely to my chest in deep sleep, I found myself lost in thought while staring at stars in the dark.

Inside the bedroom I share with my wife, twins and three rather spoiled dogs is a Starry Night sound machine that projects different colors of stars upwards towards the ceiling and on this particular night the color on the walls is green. Unable to sleep on this night, but trapped under the weight of a precious child who seemed to be dreaming about Dora The Explorer or Mickey Mouse or whatever escapade a 17-month-old angel engages in while asleep, I didn't dare move.

So, I just stared at those green stars on the ceiling as if I was hypnotized, while my mind entered into a darker place than the room illuminated with lights. With everything I hold dear to me within two feet of my still body, my mind started to think about South Bend, Indiana.

The image that was torturing my mind, heart and soul had absolutely nothing to do with the football game that will take place in 12 days between historical rivals. There were no touchdowns, screaming fans or image of Touchdown Jesus.

All that existed was the haunting image of a woman so alone in her community during the most perilous situation of her young life that she decided that ending it all was the only choice that would ease her pain. She was so alone that she decided no existence all was better than the one she owned.

Inside those stars from which I simply couldn't look away from was a girl named Lizzy Seeberg and in the aftermath of the events from Waco this week, I couldn't control what happened next.

I cried.

For those that aren't familiar with Lizzy, she was a 19-year-old student at Saint Mary's College, a school just down the road from Notre Dame. On the night of August 31, 2010, Lizzy was left alone in a room with a Notre Dame football player, who then sexually assaulted her according to the handwritten statement she provided to school police.

In the direct aftermath of reporting what happened that night, the following occurred.

a. After turning to the police, a mutual friend of the girl and the alleged rapist sent her text messages warning her not to "do anything you would regret," and that "messing with Notre Dame football is a bad idea."

b. Over the course of the first 10 days after she reported the crime, the police took zero action. The Notre Dame football player named in her report was not questioned and never so much as missed a practice.

c. So distraught by everything taking place in and around her world, Lizzy committed suicide.

d. The police investigating her claim were so interested in seeking justice that they waited another five days after her suicide before finally questioning the alleged attacker.

e. Since Lizzy was now dead, no action was ever taken against her alleged attacker. No missed practices. No missed games. No missed nothing.

f. In the year that followed the devastating decision to end her life, Notre Dame officials executed a concerted effort to slander the young female's name in the shadows by positioning her as a sexually charged woman who was seeking an apparent good time.



The similarities between Lizzy's situation and that of former Baylor soccer player "Jane Doe" (her court name), whose own sexual assault by a Baylor football player in 2013 led to a felony conviction this week, go well beyond the colors on the uniform and the private school status soaked in Christian values.

In addition to the uncaring investigations and the enabling institutions that protected football over all else, the situations that Lizzy and Jane found themselves in never had to occur, if only the men responsible for bringing the alleged and the convicted rapists had cared enough to know more about the young men they brought into their programs than their ability to disrupt an offense.

As was the case with convicted sexual assaulter Sam Ukwuachu, the man Lizzy believed had stolen her mind, body and soul arrived on his college campus with a reputation of violent behavior off the field and as was the case with Art Briles, nothing meant more than adding a player that might help Notre Dame win, regardless of the costs.

Prince Shembo is the name of the player that allegedly raped Lizzy and before he ever arrived as a four-star prospect, he was suspended as a high school senior for throwing a desk at a teacher that had the gall to take away his cell phone. Let me repeat that Shembo threw a desk at a teacher. And Notre Dame took him in anyway.

Five years after allegedly raping Lizzy, Shembo lost his job in the NFL when he murdered a girlfriend's Yorkie in May. According to the police, Shembo left the tiny animal with a fractured rib, fractured liver, abdominal hemorrhage, thoracic hemorrhage, extensive bruising and hemorrhage in the muscles in her front leg and shoulders, head trauma, hemorrhage and edema in lungs, hemorrhage between the eso****us and trachea, and hemorrhage in the left eye with internal injuries.

This is the man Notre Dame and investigating police chose to protect over the needs of a shattered young woman.

While sobbing quietly in thought about Lizzy and Jane, I could feel my daughter breathing in and out while draped across my body, secure in knowing that there could be no safer place than the nest she'd made for herself on this night. The very thing that comforted her was the thing that was haunting me before I closed my eyes for the night.

There will be a day when Haven is a young adult and I won't be able to protect her as I can currently. At some point, she'll be a young woman like Lizzy and Jane, which means I'm going to drop her off at a college of her choosing and all I'll be able to do at that point is pray that the fates of Lizzy and Jane never find her.

What I've learned in the last 17 months is that nothing terrifies a father more than the idea of turning his little princess loose in a world that is quicker to put her on trial should she ever find herself sexually assaulted than to ensure she's protected from the animal who is responsible. Heaven forbid, such a situation ever involve a football player, because our society has long cared more about wins and losses than protecting those who can't protect themselves.

Just as my mind wandered into thought about what the fathers of Lizzy and Jane must go through on a daily basis, my daughter popped up out of sleep, seemingly unaware of her surroundings. Suddenly, her eyes found my eyes and she broke out in the most beautifully innocent smile these eyes have ever seen.

And I cried some more. For Lizzy. For Jane. For their fathers. For my daughter. For me.

Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
148085 posts
Posted on 8/24/15 at 3:00 pm to
quote:

No. 2 Hey Art, we're not talking football

Baylor head football coach Art Briles is a dangerous, disingenuous enabler of abusers and he's hoping your attention span is extremely short.

So is Baylor's athletic department and the university itself.

In fact, they are counting on it.

We cannot allow that to happen.

In the immediate aftermath of Sam Ukwuachu's sexual assault conviction this week, like a Penn and Teller skit, Briles and those around him attempted to engage in a bit of a shell game, releasing statements and documents that appeared to be cloaked in mistruths, half-truths or no truths at all.

Through the conniving words of Briles, who chose to immediately throw all responsibility of his decision-making elsewhere, much of the conversation in recent days has focused on what Boise State head coach Chris Petersen and the school told Briles, as if there was a single misdeed in this story of reckless mismanagement instead of a number much higher than that.

We cannot allow that to happen.

I will not allow that to happen.

The Beginning

I'm going to ask you to use logic in this section because it's critically important when trying to rummage through the deceptive actions and words Briles has offered up for more than two years in regards to Ukwuachu.

Briles's current story consists of him never being told by anyone at Boise State, including former BSU head coach Chris Petersen, that Ukwuachu had anger or abuse issues while he was a student there. Never mind that Petersen quickly disputed that claim under no uncertain terms (unless you believe the words "thoroughly apprised" translates to nothing that's actually thorough) or that Boise State did an in-house investigation that painted a very troubled picture of Ukwuachu, let's just give Briles the benefit of the doubt.

Poor Art was out of the loop completely.

It's important to note that in order for Briles's story to continue to hold water and for any justification of Briles's decision-making that followed the assault of Jane Doe to appear remotely justified, he would had to have never actually found out about Ukwuachu's past at all. Like not until the Texas Monthly article came out this week.

In order for that to be the case, logic would deduce the following

1. Everyone at Boise State not only misled Briles, but Chris Petersen was purposely deceptive on when the two men discussed Ukwuachu's situation at Boise State, despite the fact that there was nothing to gain and everything to lose should his deceptiveness eventually lead to problems at Baylor.

2. Ukwuachu lied to Briles from start to finish, never once detailing what actually happened at Boise that led to his departure.

3. Either Pearland High School head coach Tony Heath also lied to Briles in giving Ukwuachu a firm recommendation or Heath never found out what happened from Petersen, Ukwuachu, the people of Boise or pretty much anyone on the face of the earth who might have known what happened to his former player in a far-away-state. Keep in mind that Heath describes Ukwuachu as a close friend to his son, so either Heath just didn't care or everyone involved made an effort to leave him clueless to what was happening. EVERYONE. We also have to believe that a Boise State coaching staff that recruits the Houston-area like gangbusters would risk its reputation and ability to continue to recruit the area by holding back any and all info.

4. Ukwuachu's family also misled Briles or was completely in the dark about what happened at Boise because it apparently never gave any indication that troubles existed outside of homesickness and some depression.

5. When Boise State blocked Baylor's appeal to allow Ukwuachu to play immediately, Briles never asked anyone why. Once the deny of the appeal came in, he just shrugged his shoulders and never once asked for specific reasons for why the school would take such actions against a kid that was homesick and depressed. Basically, Briles thought he had a player being mistreated by the jerks at Boise (given the circumstances), but he never followed up with questions that might lead to answers. Oh, and in order for this to be true, logic dictates that no one at Baylor so much as asked a series of questions after the deny of the appeal arrived in an effort to support its new pass-rushing machine.

Logically, those are the things that had to have happened together in concert to keep Briles forever in the dark, except there's a problem with the logic

Petersen isn't the only person that claims to have been honest with Briles, as Ukwuachu himself has given strong indications that Briles wasn't guilty of the banana in the tailpipe routine.

"The Baylor coaches knew everything and were really supportive, so I appreciate that," Ukwuachu told Sicemsports.com in 2013 after his transfer had become complete.

One of the questions Briles must answer is this if everyone lied to your face about what happened at Boise, why did you forever stand by Ukwuachu once you did find out that everyone lying to you had left you in a very precarious situation?

It turns out that a player he didn't care enough about to ask a few follow-up questions when his eligibility appeal was denied, lied and left him completely wide-open for massive criticism following the claims of sexual assault.

In what world does that happen and the response is to double-down on the support for Ukwuachu?

Briles's decision-making in the aftermath of a sexual assault allegation

Typically speaking, the way a college coach handles allegations of sexual assault isn't rocket
science.

If a player is being investigated for sexual assault, you suspend him and hold him out of all team activities until the investigation is completed

If a player is charged with sexual assault, you boot him from the program never to return.

If the investigation goes nowhere and charges are never made, you can bring the player back. If charges are made but eventually dropped, he can attempt to play football somewhere else, but he can't play at your school because the risk is simply too great.

Those are the ABCs from the unwritten college coaching handbook, except that Briles went the opposite way. From the moment of his transfer through the initial investigation of the crime through the entire legal process that followed, Briles tripled and quadrupled down on his support of Ukwuachu, allowing him to continue to take classes and hang out in and around the program, all in an effort to ensure that if any wiggle-room became available, Ukwuachu would be instantly available for the football team.

Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
148085 posts
Posted on 8/24/15 at 3:00 pm to
quote:


How do we know that?

Because Baylor defensive coordinator Phil Bennett told a room full of Baylor alumni that this summer, nearly a year after charges were presented and just a few months before Ukwuachu's trial was set to begin. Oh, and Ukwuachu's attorney mentioned the same thing in court this week. Pending pretty much anything but a guilty conviction, the hope was that Ukwuachu would play this year

Meanwhile, over the course of the last two years, Briles went out of his way to remain vague on the circumstances surrounding Ukwuachu when anyone asked about his situation. Instead of acknowledging what was taking place, Briles's disingenuously misled anyone and everyone looking for an answer. Briles would have you believe that because Ukwuachu never played, he took the proper amount of action in such an incredibly dangerous set of circumstances, but the truth is all Baylor ever really did was take his name off the roster, which really isn't the same thing as booting a player from the program at all.

The truth is that he enabled a monster before, during and right up until his conviction of a violent sex crime in almost every way a college coach could possibly enable and protect such a monster.

And now he would like for us all to believe that he's the trustworthy one and everyone else is the liar.

The disaster known as Baylor University ...

In the event you're under the impression that I believe Briles alone is to blame, let's take a look at the incredible set of decisions that took place under Baylor president Ken Starr's watch.

1. Baylor Associate Dean Bethany McCraw, who was responsible for the Title IX investigation of the alleged assault, cared so deeply about finding the truth that she didn't even wait to include the results from the pending rape examination before concluding that "there was not enough evidence to move forward" in the school's investigation of Jane Doe's claim. McCraw's work was so careless and flimsy that none of it was allowed into evidence in court this week
2. In the aftermath of the allegations, rather than take action against the alleged rapist, the school forced Jane Doe to change her classes and her study times, eventually taking scholarship money away from her when she struggled to keep it all together, which caused the victim to eventually transfer.

3. The school knowingly allowed Briles to breach normal protocol in the situation of sexual assault charges involving student-athletes, eventually allowing Ukwuachu to graduate from the school after receiving an uninterrupted education worth six figures.
. He said he told her that if she would have called him that night, he would have given her a ride home

4. The school's athletic chaplain, Wes Yeary, testified on behalf of Ukwuachu, despite the fact that Jane Doe had told Yeary about the assault. According to the Waco Tribune Herald, this is what happened when the prosecution asked if Yeary knew the victim:
."

"Under cross-examination, LaBorde asked if he also knows the victim in the case, bringing an immediate objection from Dan MacLemore, who represents Baylor and was sitting in the back of the courtroom. MacLemore said he would assert the pastor's clergy-parishioner privilege if there were questions about pastoral counseling with the victim.

"After a conference in the judge's chambers, which included the victim, Yeary testified that she told him about the assault

5. Perhaps more than anything, every single person involved in this story on the university side of things is guilty for never approaching Briles and saying, "Lord forgive me, but what the ^%$# are you doing? Nothing about your decision-making and actions is worthy of a school that prides itself in being a place of Christian ideologies

The bottom line with Briles

It's his job to know who and what is coming in and out of his program, and no one else's.

Enablers of his activities will have you believe that it takes some sort of telepathic skill to uncover the events that journalists from Texas Monthly were able to find by simply asking the right people. Rather than asking how Briles is supposed to know about these details, perhaps the enablers should be asking how many abusers of women has Briles let into his programs over the years through similar failed background checks

If the message today is that Briles isn't responsible for bringing in a person with a history of violence and possible abuse, then what you're really saying is that he's never responsible for anything other than wins and losses, and maybe that's the way Baylor University wants it.

But, it is his responsibility and not knowing isn't an excuse that works in 2015.

If we're to believe Briles, he unknowingly allowed an abuser to come into his school and within months, that abuser sexually assaulted a women

That's on him. It happened on Briles's watch
If the message today is that he's not responsible for any of this, then let's just throw the idea of responsibility out altogether. At no point in any of this has Briles ever stood up and said, "The buck stops with me. It was my decision to bring him into the program and I am responsible for all things that happen in my program." Instead, he's tried to pin blame on Boise State, Chris Petersen, Tony Heath and just about anyone else he can think of.

Here's the truth

Art Briles is a dangerous, disingenuous enabler of abusers and he must be removed as head coach from Baylor University's football program.

If that doesn't happen, there's zero reason to believe history won't repeat itself. Again.

We cannot allow that happen
Posted by Dr RC
The Money Pit
Member since Aug 2011
59932 posts
Posted on 8/24/15 at 3:27 pm to
its a long read but Fat Ketch nails it


where Baylor is truly fricked is how the school acted once the accusation was made.


Posted by Dawgsontop34
Member since Jun 2014
44779 posts
Posted on 8/24/15 at 3:48 pm to
WCA, are you actually agreeing with something Ketch wrote? I don't believe it
Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
148085 posts
Posted on 8/24/15 at 3:51 pm to
i havent read any of it except for the first couple of paragraphs that are about as classic ketch as it gets so i cant comment on anything he has written

i do ultimately believe that to assume that briles didnt know anything about what happened in boise is to make the claim that he just didnt even try to figure out all what happened which is really fricking bad
This post was edited on 8/24/15 at 3:52 pm
Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
148085 posts
Posted on 8/24/15 at 3:53 pm to
not like any of this matters. there is absolutely no way in hell briles gets fired for anything less than him actively taking part in the sexual assault
Posted by Dr RC
The Money Pit
Member since Aug 2011
59932 posts
Posted on 8/24/15 at 3:56 pm to
quote:

i havent read any of it except for the first couple of paragraphs that are about as classic ketch as it gets so i cant comment on anything he has written


part 1 of the 3 posts isnt really relevant. It's mostly trying to draw parallels with the girl who accused a ND player of rape and then committed suicide b/c the school did jack shite about it. Parts 2 and 3 are what are worth reading.
This post was edited on 8/24/15 at 3:57 pm
Posted by tigerpimpbot
Chairman of the Pool Board
Member since Nov 2011
68315 posts
Posted on 8/24/15 at 4:11 pm to
Damn that's such a fricked up situation. Baylor looks terrible.
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