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Started By
Message
re: Sounds like they've got ole Lance Armstrong dead to rights......
Posted on 9/6/12 at 9:50 am to hashtag
Posted on 9/6/12 at 9:50 am to hashtag
quote:
I never said whether I think he was juicing or not. The facts remain that he has passed over 500 drug tests with zero failed tests. The USADA has a testing procedure in place, and Lance Armstrong cooperated and was never found guilty.
They need to move on.
But the UCI itself has punished people who passed their drug tests when they had enough circumstantial evidence. Read up on Operation Puerto and the Festina Scandal. There were no failed drug tests in those cases but dozens of folks stilled got suspended and titles stripped away.
1
Posted on 9/6/12 at 9:59 am to trackfan
quote:
Operation Puerto
- cyclists admitted to doping
- Spanish police found doping equipment (blood packets, steroid packs, equipment to infuse these) when raiding residence of those involved
quote:
Festina Scandal
- cyclists admitted to doping
- French police found doping equipment in the car of the Festina cycling team
quote:
Lance Armstrong
- teammates said they doped
- teammates said Lance Armstrong doped
One of these is not like the other.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 10:24 am to The Mick
He's innocent.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 10:49 am to The Mick
quote:
Tyler Hamilton
This guy sounds so full of shite on the herd right now. Just looking to get paid.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 10:53 am to hashtag
Slackhouse, you don't know what you're talking about. The riders in Operation Puerto and the Festina scandal were suspended whether they admitted it or not and many never admitted. For example, Richard Virenque never admitted anything, but he was suspended anyway, and none of them flunked drug tests which is what my earlier post was about. Do you think the UCI would base its actions on whether they got an admission or not? If that was the case, no one would ever admit anything unless they flunked a drug test. Come on man! How silly can you be? 
My point is that the UCI has shown in the past that it's willing to suspend people without failed drug tests.
My point is that the UCI has shown in the past that it's willing to suspend people without failed drug tests.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 11:03 am to trackfan
quote:
Richard Virenque never admitted anything, but he was suspended anyway, and none of them flunked drug tests which is what my earlier post was about.
But they still had physical evidence (the team steward trying to cross from Belgium with, according to The Independent (via wikipedia): "235 doses of erythropoietin (EPO), an artificial hormone which boosts the red cells (and therefore endurance) but can thicken the blood to fatal levels if not controlled properly. They also found 82 doses of a muscle-strengthening hormone called Sauratropine,; 60 doses of Pantestone, a derivative of testosterone, which boosts body strength but can cause cancer; and sundry pain-deadening corticoids and energy-fuelling amphetamines."
There was still evidence other than testimony. Over 400 doses of illegal PED's in Virenque and Festina's case.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 11:09 am to Baloo
Lance Armstrong is the greatest doper the world has ever seen. He really was a hell of a doper.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 11:26 am to Baloo
quote:
But they still had physical evidence (the team steward trying to cross from Belgium with, according to The Independent (via wikipedia): "235 doses of erythropoietin (EPO), an artificial hormone which boosts the red cells (and therefore endurance) but can thicken the blood to fatal levels if not controlled properly. They also found 82 doses of a muscle-strengthening hormone called Sauratropine,; 60 doses of Pantestone, a derivative of testosterone, which boosts body strength but can cause cancer; and sundry pain-deadening corticoids and energy-fuelling amphetamines."
There was still evidence other than testimony. Over 400 doses of illegal PED's in Virenque and Festina's case.
I'm familiar with all of this, but those riders still hadn't flunked a drug test. Physical evidence and sworn testimony (non-analytical positives) are not the the same as failed drug tests (analytical postives). My problem with USADA is that they're overstaepping their authority. USADA has no right to strip titles, but these folks who claim that the only way Lance can be stripped of a title is if he flunks a drug test don't know what they're talking about. Also, keep in mind that the UCI hasn't stripped Bjarne Riis if his 1996 Tour title despite the fact that he's admitted to doping during that Tour.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 11:28 am to trackfan
I agree with that. If there's a sliding scale, there is:
FAILED TEST (Hamilton, Landis, etc.)
TESTIMONY + PHYSICAL EVIDENCE (Festina)
TESTIMONY (Lance)
The evidence against Armstrong is the weakest and it is due to the absence of physical evidence.
FAILED TEST (Hamilton, Landis, etc.)
TESTIMONY + PHYSICAL EVIDENCE (Festina)
TESTIMONY (Lance)
The evidence against Armstrong is the weakest and it is due to the absence of physical evidence.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 11:45 am to Baloo
quote:
I agree with that. If there's a sliding scale, there is:
FAILED TEST (Hamilton, Landis, etc.)
TESTIMONY + PHYSICAL EVIDENCE (Festina)
TESTIMONY (Lance)
The evidence against Armstrong is the weakest and it is due to the absence of physical evidence.
But the evidence in the case of Operation Puerto was just a notebook with pets' names and nicknames in it, since the only one at the scene when the police made the raid was the doctor.
By the way, 1996 World Champion and 3-times Parix-Roubaix winner Johan Museeuw is calling for the peleton to end the "omerta" and for his former colleagues to do a "collective mea cupla"
quote:
Doping and EPO were established in the peloton in the 1980s and 1990s, says Johan Museeuw, who has called on his former colleagues to confess their doping. The Belgian has in the past acknowledged his own doping use during his successful career.
"I am the first to admit it openly, and perhaps many people will blame me that I break the silence, but it must be: virtually everyone took doping at that time,” he told the Gazet van Antwerpen.
"We must break with the hypocrisy. The only way to come out of that murderous spiral is to break the silence, the silence that continues to haunt us.”
Everyone must confess to their part, he said. “If we do not then the borrowing into the past will continue. Only a collective mea culpa is the way to the future.”
Doping was a fact of life at that period, he said. “In the 80s and 90s everyone knew what each other was doing but never said a word about doping. Using doping was something everyone did. Eventually it became a part of your lifestyle."
But the peloton is cleaner now, he said. “Because it 'is' better, now. Never before has racing been so clean, I'm sure. But that data is completely snowed under” since many of those involved refused to tell the truth about “the things that went wrong in the past. The omerta of the past prevents cycling from now starting again with a clean slate."
LINK
Posted on 9/6/12 at 11:52 am to trackfan
They still don't have any evidence, or they haven' released, and physical evidence. they just have testimony.
There is a reason the Feds didn't pursue this. But apparently the USADA doesn't have to follow the same rules as the Feds and have anythign liek a fair trial.
There is a reason the Feds didn't pursue this. But apparently the USADA doesn't have to follow the same rules as the Feds and have anythign liek a fair trial.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 11:56 am to hashtag
quote:
the most tested athlete in the history of the world.
ZERO failed tests.
Regardless of what anyone says, this fact is indisputable (to my knowledge, at least).
Posted on 9/6/12 at 12:01 pm to Patrick_Bateman
quote:quote:
the most tested athlete in the history of the world.
ZERO failed tests.
Regardless of what anyone says, this fact is indisputable (to my knowledge, at least).
There's no way of knowing whether he's the most tested athlete in history since the governing bodies of the various sports don't publish that sort of information.
As for him never having failed a drugs, there is some dispute about this. He is accused of getting a back-dated prescription in 1999 and paying the UCI to cover up a failed drug test in 2001.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 12:22 pm to trackfan
Back in 1999, Armstrong was dinged for a corticosteroid, but he produced a doctor’s prescription saying it was used for saddle sores and so he was never sanctioned. The script was most likely back dated.
One reason Lance may have never failed a drug test is while he was allegedly doing EPO, there was not a good, reliable test for EPO. As part of the development of a test for EPO, supposedly a B sample from one of Lance's Tour tests was checked and it came back positive. But since it was an old sample and the chain of custody was questionable, nothing could be done....see below from Wiki.
One reason Lance may have never failed a drug test is while he was allegedly doing EPO, there was not a good, reliable test for EPO. As part of the development of a test for EPO, supposedly a B sample from one of Lance's Tour tests was checked and it came back positive. But since it was an old sample and the chain of custody was questionable, nothing could be done....see below from Wiki.
quote:
On August 23, 2005, L'Équipe, a major French daily sports newspaper, reported on its front page under the headline "le mensonge Armstrong" ("The Armstrong Lie") that 6 urine samples taken from the cyclist during the prologue and five stages of the 1999 Tour de France, frozen and stored since at "Laboratoire national de dépistage du dopage de Châtenay-Malabry" (LNDD), had tested positive for erythropoietin (EPO) in recent retesting conducted as part of a research project into EPO testing methods.[100][101] Armstrong immediately replied on his website, saying, "Unfortunately, the witch hunt continues and tomorrow's article is nothing short of tabloid journalism. The paper even admits in its own article that the science in question here is faulty and that I have no way to defend myself. They state: 'There will therefore be no counter-exam nor regulatory prosecutions, in a strict sense, since defendant's rights cannot be respected.' I will simply restate what I have said many times: I have never taken performance enhancing drugs."[102] In October 2008, the AFLD gave Armstrong the opportunity to have samples taken during the 1998 and 1999 Tours de France retested.[103] Armstrong immediately refused, saying, "the samples have not been maintained properly." Head of AFLD Pierre Bordry stated: "Scientifically there is no problem to analyze these samples – everything is correct" and "If the analysis is clean it would have been very good for him. But he doesn't want to do it and that's his problem
Posted on 9/6/12 at 12:47 pm to Zappas Stache
They have had EPO tests since 2000 I think. It isn't insanely hard to tell artificial EPO from natural EPO.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 1:27 pm to The Mick
I've been to a few Tour stages and was on the upper slopes of Alpe D'Huez the day Armstrong gave Ullrich the famous look in 2001, and one thing that struck me about my Tour experiences is what a boon Armstrong's success for French business owners. The hotels, restaurants and bars were full of Americans, and I doubt that those businesses would have done so well if a European had dominated from 1999 to 2005 instead of an American, and the worst case scenario for them would have been if that rider was French. My impression is that most of the Europeans either do day trips (their countries are the size of our states) and bring their food and spirits with them or they camp on the roadside. It's similar to the reason that the New Orleans business owners hate to see LSU in the Sugar Bowl, except that the Tour is a three-week event, not a one weekend event, so there's a lot more money involved.
For these reasons, I can understand that there would have been a lot of pressure to keep an American contender in the race all those years, and when Landis won in 2006, those business owners probably thought "how lucky can we be?" Notice that Landis wasn't exposed until a couple of days after the Tour had ended, after the hotels, bars and restaurants had already reaped the benefits.
For these reasons, I can understand that there would have been a lot of pressure to keep an American contender in the race all those years, and when Landis won in 2006, those business owners probably thought "how lucky can we be?" Notice that Landis wasn't exposed until a couple of days after the Tour had ended, after the hotels, bars and restaurants had already reaped the benefits.
This post was edited on 9/6/12 at 1:28 pm
Posted on 9/6/12 at 1:33 pm to trackfan
quote:
Johan Museeuw is calling for the peleton to end the "omerta" and for his former colleagues to do a "collective mea cupla"
Way too sensible. I think people are just trapped in the past and can't move forward (especially in baseball). Just admit that was the era, wipe the slate clean, and move on.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 1:42 pm to Baloo
quote:
Way too sensible. I think people are just trapped in the past and can't move forward (especially in baseball). Just admit that was the era, wipe the slate clean, and move on.
I think it's a lot easier to do in baseball because prior to 2003, there was no PED enforcement program in MLB, while the UCI has had anti-doping rules in place for decades.
Furthermore, I don't understand why folks are willing to give a pass to Mays, Mantle and all the other players from the Amphetamines Era while scorning Bonds, McGuire and all the other players from the Steroid Era. Both steroids and amphetamines are FDA-controlled substances and illegal to possess without a doctors prescription.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 2:54 pm to trackfan
Because middle aged sportswriters grew up with Mays and Mantle and those guys are their heroes, and their heroes get a pass. Bonds is just some uppity punk.
Posted on 9/6/12 at 2:58 pm to The Mick
quote:
I personally believe Lance used PED's but I dont really care.
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