re: PER and Kobe Bryant

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Meh it has Magic at 15 way behind Chris Paul. I don't need PER to know that Magic >>> Paul.

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Well said.

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The stats show that Kobe (while certainly a more willing, able passer and defender) is a more decorated Carmelo Anthony when viewed objectively, at least on the offensive end

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Exactly. This is what PER doesn't factor in, and what some of the PER fans on this board seem to believe is that the "decorated" part of Kobe's career means nothing. The dude has won 5 NBA Titles. FIVE.

This is why you play the game.

And this is why PER alone is not a valid tool for ranking players. Kobe is much higher than the 21st best player ever.

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It's because while Kobe is/was good, he is also very overrated


I don't think so. Probably doesn't deserve to be in GOAT discussions, but he deserved all the hype he's gotten through the years.

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your statement is internally contradictory.

PER doesn't measure everything but it is meaningful. Kobe is a great player and is absolutely phenomenal when it comes to making hard shots from the outside (that he shouldn't have taken) but if you look at his numbers he's got a lower field goal percentage than other big time scorers who played similar positions.

He's just not as efficient or as balanced of a player as some of the other all time greats (even adjusted for position) and that shows up in the metrics.

Jordan
PER 27.9
WS/48 .250
ppg 30.1
fg% .497
trb 6.2
apg 5.3
bpg 0.8
spg 2.3
tov 2.7

Jerry West
PER 22.9
WS/48 .213
ppg 27.0
fg% .474
trb 5.8
apg 6.7
spg 2.6
bpg 0.7

Julius Erving
PER 23.6
WS/48 .192
PPG 24.2
fg% .506
trb 8.5
apg 4.2
bpg 1.7
spg 2.0
tov 3.4

Kobe Bryant
PER 23.4
WS/48 .182
PPG 25.5
fg% .454
trb 5.3
apg 4.8
spg 1.5
bpg 0.5
tov 3.0

Yes, but Magic is. He clearly is, yet he is not as high on PER. David Robinson is 5th and is well above Hakeem, who was a superior player. Same with Magic over Paul.

PER is a really good stat, but you have to understand that it's not THE way to determine where someone ranks all time. I think we've forgotten already just how great Kobe was, and this is from someone who spent his early years on the MSB saying he was overrated. People were talking GOAT with him just like people are doing now with Lebron. It's easy to forget just how good the dude was. He's a top 5 perimeter player ever. Big men are in a class of their own IMO.

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However, his rings have distorted perceptions of how great he actually was.

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We just have a fundamental disagreement on what makes a player great.

Not saying it's only rings that matter. Robert Horry is obviously not high on my list of all time greats. But it certainly matters a lot to me.

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Chris Paul is better than Magic ever was...

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There are just no words for this.

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the man isn't even out the door yet and we throwing a hate party? 

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not as bad as the daily hate party for guys in their prime lol.

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He's a bit overrated. There's nothing wrong with that. But I don't think that championships should be the only thing we look at when determining individual greatness. Kobe was a great player. But in my opinion he is not on the elite list of all-time greats.

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In most people's mind he's the second greatest SG in NBA history aside from MJ. Surely that alone secures his place "on the elite list of all-time greats" as you say.

What's overrated about being the focal point of 2 NBA titles?

Even Kobe's first 3 titles with Shaq he was considerably more valuable than say a Pippen to Jordan or Wade to LeBron.

After the 99-00 title one could argue it was more of a 1A/1B with Shaq & Kobe.

Kobe -
"99-00" 22/5/6, "00-01" 28/5/6, "01-02" 25/5/5

Shaq -
"99-00" 29/13/3, "00-01" 28/12/3, "01-02" 27/10/3

Let's not forget the man is fourth on the NBA all time scoring list.

The only three players ahead of Kobe are MJ/Malone who each played 19yrs, & Kareem who played for 20yrs.

Judging a player based solely on PER is a short sided approach that doesn't give an accurate portrayal of a players greatness throughout his career imo.

Kobe is awesome. But if someone doesn't think he's overrated they're insane. And PER is a damn good stat. Lebron is shooting a RIDICULOUS % this year while still scoring around the same as any great would, including Kobe. But think about what else gets accomplished when possessions are saved because Lebron is WAY more efficient. Being efficient isn't for losers while shooting yourself to death is for the cool kids. We all hate on Carmelo for how he plays. Kobe is in that mold(I know he's way better).

Be really good at basketball and be drafted by the Lakers and you're gonna be put on a pedistle. If Kobe was drafted by the worst team in the league he wouldn't be who he is now. Not even close.