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Message
re: FSU sources: Florida State/Clemson to Big12 "inevitable"
Posted on 5/21/12 at 12:32 pm to NOLAeer
Posted on 5/21/12 at 12:32 pm to NOLAeer
quote:
Adding Texas and OU will HELP recruiting. I doubt Florida kids will miss trips to North Carolina, or Boston, or Pitt, or syracuse NY. At least when they travel Texas, OU, and most of the Big 12 will have wild football crowds and good teams to greet them. Not empty stadiums.
Exactly.
1
Posted on 5/21/12 at 12:34 pm to rocket31
Clemson and FSU are football schools, not basketball schools like most of the remaining members of ACC. Under the current and most recent past landscape of college football, sure, their fans would not want to travel to the southwest and play Big 12 teams as their conference games. However, if the ACC gets left out of the "playoff table," then I'm sure Clemson and FSU fans would rather that their respective schools bolt their current conference as the ACC will not give them at the very least the opportunity to play for a championship. And while both of these schools would rather go the SEC route, if USC and UF are going to block them from joining a super conference, no reason for them to tuck their tails between their legs and just stay put in the sinking ship of the ACC when they can join the Big 12 and get big boy money to allow them to stay competitive with their SEC rivals of USC and UF.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 12:59 pm to Roscoe
Just my general thoughts.
This whole expansion thing is ridiculous, and so is the idea of super conferences. 16 team conferences just do not make sense to me, unless you increase the length of the season.
First off, I don't think FSU is that great of a fit with the Big 12. It is just weird. Further, I am quite sure that FSU, UT and OU will NOT be in the same division, that means playing the non-marquee teams. A schedule of Iowa St, Kansas, K State, West Virginia, and Clemson. [Edit: I realize you will play cross division games, talking about yearly schedule] So, you are dropping
Wake Forrest
NC State
Maryland
Boston College
for
Kansas
K State
Iowa St
West Virginia
Never gonna happen. The media markets on the East Coast are just too large, and it would be a huge anti-trust issue if only 4 conferences [lets say 64 teams] have access to the championship. They would have to split the divisions in CFB again, and make the mid majors part of FCS or something.
I mean the last 2 [or 3] years, schools have been jumping the Big 12 ship because it sucks to deal with Texas apparently, and just last year, there was talk of the big 12 imploding. Now, it is the ACC, who just poached two teams, that is going to implode? [not to mention all agreeing to a higher exit fee]
I love how the south is acting like the East Coast just doesn't matter. If nothing else, the Big East and ACC would join to represent the eastern markets.
Lastly, this side deal with the SEC and Big 12 doesn't mean anything in terms of preserving any cross conference rivalries [GT/GA; FSU/UF; USC/CLEM] because it is only 1 bowl game, and those teams already play each other. That move is purely to counter the B1G/PAC block.
This whole expansion thing is ridiculous, and so is the idea of super conferences. 16 team conferences just do not make sense to me, unless you increase the length of the season.
quote:
At least when they travel Texas, OU, and most of the Big 12 will have wild football crowds and good teams to greet them. Not empty stadiums.
First off, I don't think FSU is that great of a fit with the Big 12. It is just weird. Further, I am quite sure that FSU, UT and OU will NOT be in the same division, that means playing the non-marquee teams. A schedule of Iowa St, Kansas, K State, West Virginia, and Clemson. [Edit: I realize you will play cross division games, talking about yearly schedule] So, you are dropping
Wake Forrest
NC State
Maryland
Boston College
for
Kansas
K State
Iowa St
West Virginia
quote:
However, if the ACC gets left out of the "playoff table,"
Never gonna happen. The media markets on the East Coast are just too large, and it would be a huge anti-trust issue if only 4 conferences [lets say 64 teams] have access to the championship. They would have to split the divisions in CFB again, and make the mid majors part of FCS or something.
I mean the last 2 [or 3] years, schools have been jumping the Big 12 ship because it sucks to deal with Texas apparently, and just last year, there was talk of the big 12 imploding. Now, it is the ACC, who just poached two teams, that is going to implode? [not to mention all agreeing to a higher exit fee]
I love how the south is acting like the East Coast just doesn't matter. If nothing else, the Big East and ACC would join to represent the eastern markets. Lastly, this side deal with the SEC and Big 12 doesn't mean anything in terms of preserving any cross conference rivalries [GT/GA; FSU/UF; USC/CLEM] because it is only 1 bowl game, and those teams already play each other. That move is purely to counter the B1G/PAC block.
This post was edited on 5/21/12 at 1:07 pm
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:00 pm to Archie Bengal Bunker
quote:
Wake Forrest
NC State
Maryland
Boston College
for
Kansas
K State
Iowa St
West Virginia
one is not like the others
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:01 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
blame the ACC circa 2002 for starting this whole mess
Or you can blame Bill Clements (responsible for SMU debacle), DeLoss Dodds (tu AD), Bill Byrne (then Nebraska AD), and Clayton Williams (had he not given his infamous line, Ann Richards would have never been Governor, and Baylor would have been hung out to dry) circa 1987-1991.
Or you can blame Oklahoma and Georgia for their successful antitrust lawsuit against the CFA.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:01 pm to StraightCashHomey21
quote:
one is not like the others
You're right.
Kansas actually has a national championship in a major sport in the modern era.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:02 pm to rocket31
quote:
those two are the least possible actually.
its pretty much:
1. independent
2a. Big12
2b. save ACC
I agree with your #1 (actually said it in the earlier post)... but no way do I think anyone outside of the Big 12 thinks Notre Dame makes sense in the Big 12.
The most natural fit is still either the Big 10 (where a lot of their traditional rivals play and the geography works) or the Big East (which they were already part of for basketball etc and the geography still makes some sense).
Someone who is a Notre Dame alum could maybe argue otherwise to me but I'd really have to hear good reasons for them to be traveling to ISU, KSU, Texas Tech, Baylor, and Kansas before I believe it
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:03 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
and most of the Big 12 will have wild football crowds and good teams to greet them.
Wild football crowds?
I'll give you OU, West Virginia and MAYBE Oklahoma State.
Good teams?
I'll give you OU, sometimes tu, West Virginia, Oklahoma State and MAYBE TCU.
Most = greater than 50%, which doesn't apply to either claim.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:04 pm to CGSC Lobotomy
quote:
You're right.
Kansas actually has a national championship in a major sport in the modern era.
we are talking football go troll else where
hell but they do have a modern BCS win unlike their rivals Mizzou
This post was edited on 5/21/12 at 1:05 pm
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:05 pm to Archie Bengal Bunker
nb4JP says how far behind the teams are going to fall with lost TV revenue....
Yea, I have heard that argument, but they ACC signed off on the deal; so, I am guessing they are ok with it. There will always be a discrepancy in what different conferences make, and you can't just keep jumping ships to, as someone said earlier, "keep up with the Joneses."
Edit: further to that point, this adding teams to generate revenue starts to become a house of cards. I mean imagine if the SEC added 4 more teams from the West Coast! Then they could make a Zillion dollars in TV money. At some point, there has to be diminishing returns.
Yea, I have heard that argument, but they ACC signed off on the deal; so, I am guessing they are ok with it. There will always be a discrepancy in what different conferences make, and you can't just keep jumping ships to, as someone said earlier, "keep up with the Joneses."
Edit: further to that point, this adding teams to generate revenue starts to become a house of cards. I mean imagine if the SEC added 4 more teams from the West Coast! Then they could make a Zillion dollars in TV money. At some point, there has to be diminishing returns.
This post was edited on 5/21/12 at 1:14 pm
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:16 pm to JPLSU1981
quote:
FSU sources
I also wonder if these are the same sources that kept clamoring FSU to the SEC was all but a done deal last go round?
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:20 pm to Archie Bengal Bunker
quote:
it would be a huge anti-trust issue if only 4 conferences [lets say 64 teams] have access to the championship.
I will never understand this argument.
currently only 12 teams have access to the SEC Championship, is that an anti-trust violation? Teams in Division II do not have access to the FCS championship, is that an anti-trust violation?
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:30 pm to molsusports
quote:
but I'd really have to hear good reasons for them to be traveling to ISU, KSU, Texas Tech, Baylor, and Kansas before I believe it
How is traveling to any of those schools worse than say traveling to UConn, Rutgers or Seton Hall?
The reasons the Big 12 makes sense for them is 2-fold. First and foremost is third tier TV rights. In the Big12 they could keep all of theirs and maybe even the TV deal with NBC, especially for OOC games.
Next is recruiting. ND doesn't have a home base of talent to recruit from really. Its close to Chicago but that's about it. They recruit nationally. If they are ina conference that includes Texas and Florida, as well as biannual trips to USC, they will play games in the 3 biggest recruiting states on a regular basis.
Yes, the B1G fits better geographically since they are located in Indiana, (but don't tell Rocket31 they have rivalries with anyone from the B1g, cause according to him they don't. Their only rivals are USC and Navy
). There's more to this world than geographic symmetry. This post was edited on 5/21/12 at 1:32 pm
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:32 pm to H-Town Tiger
Well, it is probably more smoke than fire, but if the Utah Attorney General thinks he can sue the BCS when there was a non-auto-qualifier provision in place, then I am sure those smaller schools will try to take some kind of action if they are excluded. But, to your point, the BCS has always maintained that it was protected against any anti-trust claims.
But, on the other hand, if the DOJ is at least looking into it, there must be something to it:
I'm sure you have seen all the stories, but here are a couple:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/does-college-footballs-bcs-system-violate-anti-trust-laws/238383/
https://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6479279
https://www.cbssports.com/general/blog/dennis-dodd/17971289/utah-attorney-general-forges-on-suing-bcs-despite-expected-changes
But, on the other hand, if the DOJ is at least looking into it, there must be something to it:
quote:
The Justice Department ... says there are "serious questions" about whether the current format to determine a national champion complies with antitrust laws.
I'm sure you have seen all the stories, but here are a couple:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/does-college-footballs-bcs-system-violate-anti-trust-laws/238383/
https://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6479279
https://www.cbssports.com/general/blog/dennis-dodd/17971289/utah-attorney-general-forges-on-suing-bcs-despite-expected-changes
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:33 pm to molsusports
quote:
Someone who is a Notre Dame alum could maybe argue otherwise
Obviously I'm not a ND alum but a few interesting reasons that have been put forward, two surprising and one not....
1. Brand independence (as opposed to conference independence) - if ND can't have the latter they still want the former and right now, absent other changes, only the Big12 can provide that.
2. Historical antagonism between public and parochial schools in the northeast/midwest - frankly, I don't even know what that means but some ND fans have described this as not wanting to join a conference largely made up of big public schools.
3. Would the CIC in the Big10 force ND to get involved in research that they would not agree with for religious reasons? Stem cell etc. Another reason that surprised me.
And I think IF (that's a big IF) ND does join, it would be to a Big12 conference with 14-16 teams so that it wouldn't be playing TTech, Kansas, etc. on a regular basis. They would be playing more regional opponents (Pitt, WVU, whoever...) plus the larger schools like Texas, OU, FlaState.. Just my opinion.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:34 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
only rivals are USC and Navy
This surprised me but I keep seeing that over and over again by ND fans. Navy? I guess that explains the Ireland game this year a bit.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:47 pm to Archie Bengal Bunker
quote:
on the other hand, if the DOJ is at least looking into it, there must be something to it
I have no doubt there are politicians rattling sabres and maybe courts that will rule against the BCS, I just don't understand the argument. First of all I should say I'm not a fan of anti-trust law to begin with, (but this is not the place to get into a debate about it but I'd argue it protects big corp interest more than comsumers). As to the BCS anti-trust. The National Champ in College football has always been based on an opinion poll. The AP could have named TCU National Champs in 2010 if they wanted to Same with Utah in 2008.
Next, how do you force the B1G for example to participate in a playoff if they don't want to? Along those lines, why can't the Rose Bowl just invite who they want? Its their bowl game? If they feel the B1G and Pac 12 will draw bigger crowds and better TV ratings, that is (or at least should be in a so called free society) their perogative.
IMO politicians threatening anti trust suits are just trying to force a playoff on CFB and get some free face time in front of voters that are fans of whatever team that feels agrieved.
To me the irony would be if these suits are successful, we'd more likely go back to the old MNC than a playoff and without the BCS basically guarenteeing a nonAQ team a spot in the BCS, Utah can have fun in Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl, cause there is no fricking way the Sugar Bowl invites them.
This post was edited on 5/21/12 at 1:53 pm
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:51 pm to OrangeBlood
quote:
This surprised me but I keep seeing that over and over again by ND fans. Navy? I guess that explains the Ireland game this year a bit.
They've played for a long time and there was some history that sounded to me more like a friendly than a rivalry.
If one team wins 40 in a row, sounds more like a homecoming to me, but what eve.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 1:59 pm to CGSC Lobotomy
quote:
Good teams?
I'll give you OU, sometimes tu,
I hate that so many of these discussions always have some element of this idiotic UT-TAMU childish rivalary.
quote:
Wild football crowds?
I'll give you OU, West Virginia and MAYBE Oklahoma State.
I guess it depends on your defination of wild, but leaving out Texas, with crowds over 100K and TTU just smacks of Aggie bitterness.
The bottom line, the Big12 is a better football conference than the ACC, which is a basketball conference first.
Posted on 5/21/12 at 2:02 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
but don't tell Rocket31 they have rivalries with anyone from the B1g, cause according to him they don't. Their only rivals are USC and Navy
funny thing is chip brown said almost the exact same thing i have been saying .... quote:
There's a lot of work that would need to get done to accommodate the Irish, who have some locks in its schedule (USC and Navy) that ND won't want to part with. (Other rivalries on their schedule are more expendable than you'd think.)
LINK
This post was edited on 5/21/12 at 2:04 pm
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