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Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:27 pm to Rep520
quote:
Comparatively, the 2007 Pistons were as good as anyone MJ faced. The 2011 Bulls, 2012 Celts and 13 and 14 Pacers were too.
That Orlando team was as good as any of these teams.
quote:
The 95-96 Magic were very good at full strength, but Grant blew his elbow out early in Game 1 and they had to start Jon Koncack the rest of the way.
Grant played 28 minutes in game one and they still lost by nearly 40 points. The Magic were 1-3 against the Bulls in the regular season and didn't stand a chance even if Grant was healthy.
Even without Grant, I'd still probably take that team against any team Lebron faced other than Detroit.
quote:
The 90-91 Pistons were on their last legs.
Dumars, Rodman, and Isiah were all still in their 20s.
Allen, Pierce, and Garnett were all in their mid 30's in 2012.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:28 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
*I would argue Jordan and the Bulls did not face a team as good as SA or Gs in the Finals or ECF.
I don't think this is too debatable. I think the SA or GS teams LeBron faced would fairly easily beat any of MJ's Finals or ECF opponents.
I agree the 93 Suns were the best of MJ's competition. I think the 07 Spurs were the weakest, and the 07 Spurs would beat the 93 Suns in 5 or 6 head to head.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:37 pm to Rep520
quote:
I don't think this is too debatable.
that's because you are reasonable. I'm seeing people argue Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen, the 2016 Cavs had more talent than the 73 win Warriors The Suns and Jazz who won exactly zero titles, including the 1 year Jordan was out were super teams with more talent than the Bulls
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:37 pm to Rep520
quote:
This just isn't true. LeBron's average VORP is better than MJ's. So is his assist % and rebound %, again in yearly average.
I said earlier in this thread that I had no issue with MJ at #1, but you can put him there without misrepresenting the stats.
+1
Also have to take into account this is a team game. MJ played with better teams throughout his years overall. I'll stick with 1a and 1b in whatever order is preferred by the individual doing the ranking
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:38 pm to Boomshockalocka
quote:
VORP is a cumulative stat. It is influenced by total minutes played . BPM is a per minute VORP. Don’t worry, lots of people don’t realize this.
That's why I averaged it year to year.
If your argument is that LeBron only had more overall value because he played more minutes in most seasons than MJ, well, that creates a better overall impact on a team.
Put another way, who did better, a guy with a slightly higher BPM who played 20 games at 30 mpg or the guy with the lower BPM who played 82 games at 40 mpg?
Handling a heavier load is what superstars do.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:42 pm to southdowns84
quote:
Dumars, Rodman, and Isiah were all still in their 20s.
so? by 93 they had a losing record. They went from 63 wins in 89 to 59 to 50 to 48 to 40. call me crazy but that looks like a trend
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:43 pm to Rep520
When I rank player the first thing I look at is how good were they at their very best, their 5+ year statistical peak.
Jordan’s peak, better across the board. advanced stats, team success, awards, you name it.
Durability/longevity are a part of it, but secondary to measuring players at their peak. Like if a guy only player for 4-5 years and had a 2 year peak that would really hurt him.
Jordan’s peak, better across the board. advanced stats, team success, awards, you name it.
Durability/longevity are a part of it, but secondary to measuring players at their peak. Like if a guy only player for 4-5 years and had a 2 year peak that would really hurt him.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:47 pm to southdowns84
quote:
Grant played 28 minutes in game one and they still lost by nearly 40 points.
It was only a 10 point game at the half before HoG got injured. More to the point, if we're arguing who had a tougher road, Orlando being without their captain and 3rd best player basically all series has to play some role.
quote:
Dumars, Rodman, and Isiah were all still in their 20s.
The Pistons only won 50 games that year. Mahorn was gone and Laimbeer, Edwards, Johnson and Aguirre were in their early-mid 30's and on the downswing.
It's clear that team was on the decline. 59 wins in 89-90 to 50 wins in 90-91 when the Bulls broke through, to 48 in 91-92 to 40 wins and missing the playoffs in 92-93.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:55 pm to Rep520
quote:
This just isn't true. LeBron's average VORP is better than MJ's.
How are you determining this average? Are you treating the two years Jordan played less than 20 games the same as any other season?
Also, you're not going to have apples to apples if you're including Jordan's two years in Washington while Lebron's twilight years are yet to be played.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:56 pm to Boomshockalocka
quote:
When I rank player the first thing I look at is how good were they at their very best, their 5+ year statistical peak.
Ok.
MJ had four seasons above a 30 PER. LeBron had 4 seasons above a 30 PER.
Playoffs, MJ had 4 seasons with a 30+ PER. LeBron has 6 seasons with a 30+ PER.
Again, I'm not even bothered by people who think MJ is #1. You can make that argument without needing to avoid data that conflicts with it.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 1:58 pm to Boomshockalocka
Dude you haven’t paid on bets with me before then you chickened out on bets.
I’ll bet you any sum of money that Harden will never win a title on a team he’s the leading guy in MPG and PPG.
I’ll bet you any sum of money that Harden will never win a title on a team he’s the leading guy in MPG and PPG.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:03 pm to southdowns84
quote:
How are you determining this average? Are you treating the two years Jordan played less than 20 games the same as any other season?
Yes. I do believe that one of the first abilities is availability. LeBron is obviously going to take a hit in last year's groin injury year too.
quote:
Also, you're not going to have apples to apples if you're including Jordan's two years in Washington while Lebron's twilight years are yet to be played.
You're right, but it's never apples to apples. I counted LeBron's early years when MJ was in college.
How do we count the 1.5 years in his prime MJ missed? How do we count LeBron's twilight years before they happen?
There are shades of gray in every comparison. As I've said a lot in this debate, I'm fine with a person who has MJ at #1. I just dislike acting like there isn't evidence that favors LeBron. Some of that evidence may well be explained by context, but that's not exactly how it gets argued most of the time.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:03 pm to southdowns84
VORP is a cumulative BPM. BPM is per minute. Any kinda song and dance he is doing with that is nonsense. This is straightforward.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:05 pm to Rep520
30+ is an arbitrary number. It doesn’t hold any value on its own. Jordans peak was better across the board.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:06 pm to TheeRealCarolina
You are assumed to be low Income/low IQ by your posts here.
I only make bets when someone sends the money first now, bc of people who haven’t paid up when they lose.
I only make bets when someone sends the money first now, bc of people who haven’t paid up when they lose.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:10 pm to Boomshockalocka
quote:
30+ is an arbitrary number.
The creator of PER uses 30-35 as a "runaway MVP" season.
quote:
It doesn’t hold any value on its own.
It differentiates a unanimous MVP type season from a strong MVP candidate according to the guy who literally created the metric.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:11 pm to Boomshockalocka
quote:
You are assumed to be low Income/low IQ by your posts here.
As are you so it would be even ground at the very least
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 2:14 pm
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:17 pm to Rep520
Lebron has players for longer, longer peak. We acknowledged that. No one argues. mike at his peak is better.
Take the 5 years Lebron lead the league in win share v the 1st 5 years mike did for comparison sake.
VORP
Lebron 47.4
Jordan 54.5
BPM
Lebron 11.1
Jordan 11.6
WS
Lebron 88
Jordan 98
PER
Lebron 30.4
Jordan 30.7
Across. The. Board.
Take the 5 years Lebron lead the league in win share v the 1st 5 years mike did for comparison sake.
VORP
Lebron 47.4
Jordan 54.5
BPM
Lebron 11.1
Jordan 11.6
WS
Lebron 88
Jordan 98
PER
Lebron 30.4
Jordan 30.7
Across. The. Board.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 2:17 pm to Rep520
I suppose this is an appropriate time to post this.
Top ten single season PERs:
1. Wilt - 31.82
2. Wilt - 31.74
3. Jordan - 31.71
4. Lebron - 31.67
5. Jordan - 31.63
6. Wilt - 31.63
7. Giannis - 31.63
8. Lebron - 31.59
9. Curry - 31.46
10. Jordan - 31.18
Top ten single season PERs:
1. Wilt - 31.82
2. Wilt - 31.74
3. Jordan - 31.71
4. Lebron - 31.67
5. Jordan - 31.63
6. Wilt - 31.63
7. Giannis - 31.63
8. Lebron - 31.59
9. Curry - 31.46
10. Jordan - 31.18
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