Page 1
Page 1
Started By
Message

Best way to play VIX

Posted on 11/29/23 at 1:04 pm
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5179 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 1:04 pm
Looking for the best ETF to play expected increase in VIX over the next 6-12 months. What does the MT recommend?
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11096 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 1:20 pm to
You can just buy call calendars but do institutions even use M1 and M2 options for hedging?
This post was edited on 11/29/23 at 4:35 pm
Posted by Hussss
Living the Dream
Member since Oct 2016
6742 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 2:57 pm to
VIX ETNs are garbage unless you buy the close and sell a big pop the very next day.

Holding these are death.
This post was edited on 11/29/23 at 2:58 pm
Posted by williejameshuft
New Orleans
Member since Jul 2012
159 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 3:21 pm to
I'm assuming your theory is the S&P will fall and cause the Vix to rise during your 6-12 month timeframe. If that's the case, it would probably make the most sense to buy longer dated S&P puts while the premium is depressed by the low Vix.

For once, I agree with Hussss. Unless you time VXX and VIXY almost perfectly, you're likely to lose even if your thesis is eventually right. Those instruments experience significant decay over time due to rolling into the next month's Vix futures each month.
Posted by LSUtoOmaha
Nashville
Member since Apr 2004
26579 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 3:45 pm to
You should do the opposite if you want to make money- wait for the VIX to spike, get heavy, and then short the ETN derivatives.
Posted by BourbonDad
Somewhere on the vol surface
Member since Sep 2016
192 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 4:12 pm to
delta 30 VIX calls expiring end of January
Posted by s0tiger
Member since May 2008
677 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 5:45 pm to
As everyone else has said, don't do it.
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5179 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 5:54 pm to
quote:

I'm assuming your theory is the S&P will fall and cause the Vix to rise during your 6-12 month timeframe.


That’s correct as far as my theory. S&P falls and VIX rises from a very depressed level.

quote:

If that's the case, it would probably make the most sense to buy longer dated S&P puts while the premium is depressed by the low Vix.


I’ve traded options, but not at a high level. I have the most success when I catch wind of something or expect an event very quickly and buy and sell in a tight window of time, usually same day or next day to lock the gain without being greedy. Admittedly not well versed in utilizing longer duration - I generally lose on that endeavor. Any advice on strategy here would be welcomed. Thanks for your input above.
Posted by CHGAR
Haile, LA
Member since Aug 2022
564 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 8:08 pm to
If you think that vol will increase and the VIX will you can but VXX. Buy SXXY is an inverse so buy it when you expect VIX to fall.

You can do this, I'm not.
This post was edited on 11/29/23 at 8:10 pm
Posted by BourbonDad
Somewhere on the vol surface
Member since Sep 2016
192 posts
Posted on 11/29/23 at 9:28 pm to
There will be an unpinning of vol within the next 60 days, likely last week of January. There have been trillions of dollars of structured products introduced to sell vol and collect premium while using risk free collateral such treasuries. This has suppressed volatility to levels that dont seem excessively low on the surface, but considering the macro economic situation, geopolitics risk, etc; vol would be WAY lower.

Couple that with the front running of capital reinvestment flows due early January on top of extended Santa Rally, Jan 17 VIX expiration, Jan 19 opex and all the massive delta buying from call selling will come crashing down as dealers unwind their hedge. This will cause vol sellers to abate and buy vol for downside protection at when the market is in the nosebleeds.

It only takes $50B to move the index a few % and if you assume 10% of the capital gains from 2023 are reinvested in Jan that’s probably $2T going to work. I think all of this will create a push to all time highs before a nasty rug pull created by volatility explosion similar to Volmageddon of Feb 2018 when VIX spiked from like 14 to 50.

Bookmark this and remind me later if I’m wrong.
This post was edited on 11/29/23 at 9:32 pm
Posted by williejameshuft
New Orleans
Member since Jul 2012
159 posts
Posted on 11/30/23 at 8:40 am to
I can explain the basis of my post above but I’m not comfortable telling you what to buy or when. Your real theory is that the SPY will fall over a 6-12 month period. The way the VIX operates is pretty complicated, and there’s no way you modeled an upside move in volatility if you’re asking the question you asked. So let’s start with that. You’re assuming the VIX will spike because you think the SPY will fall, but that’s not necessarily the case, especially if the drop in the SPY is slow and steady. And even if the VIX does rise, the VIX derivatives don’t always track the rise (as of 9:05 CST today, VIX is up about 2% and VIXY is down 0.96%). For these reasons, as well as the significant decay in VIX derivatives mentioned by a few people above, you should probably make the trade on the SPY instead of VIX derivatives. But the VIX could still factor into the trading decision.

You have 2 main choices to trade an expected drop in the SPY: shorting the SPY and buying put options on the SPY (there are more complex choices such as shorting long calls but you should probably stick to the basics). The level of the VIX can help you choose between these options. The VIX is effectively a measure of the relative prices of SPY futures options. Generally, a lower VIX means cheaper options and a higher VIX means more expensive options. Because the VIX is currently low, you would want to be buying premium based on your thesis, which is why SPY puts seems to make the most sense.

Disclaimer: I’m not saying your thesis is correct or incorrect or providing any trading advice.

GL

This post was edited on 11/30/23 at 9:06 am
Posted by RedlandsTiger
Greenwell Springs, LA
Member since Jan 2008
2939 posts
Posted on 12/1/23 at 7:27 am to
quote:

Looking for the best ETF to play expected increase in VIX


Buy SVOL-Simplify Volatility Premium ETF

LINK
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5179 posts
Posted on 12/1/23 at 9:07 pm to
quote:

Disclaimer: I’m not saying your thesis is correct or incorrect or providing any trading advice.




Thanks for the breakdown. Your assumptions were correct as far as theory and lack of the level of analysis you mentioned on my part. Admitted amateur trader that knows enough to be dangerous. Trader used loosely, I do not trade frequently. At times I have feelings based on economic background, current events, and basic knowledge of finance and attempt to put my money where my thoughts are in non-dangerous amounts.
This post was edited on 12/1/23 at 9:22 pm
first pageprev pagePage 1 of 1Next pagelast page
refresh

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram