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Started By
Message
1
Posted on 9/13/18 at 5:28 pm to Irish LSU Fan
quote:i understand you can't force people to audition
If you don't understand the nature of recruiting, then we cannot have a discussion
quote:again, not comparing apples to apples. different era. scholarships are different. but you knew all that, right?
If Frank, Linda, and Roy needed trumpets, they went after trumpets
quote:prove to me the award is not ultimately a subjective popularity contest. i'm talking about the criteria for the award. iirc, one award was given based on a video recording. how in the world can you judge sound from a video? you can't. yet, you are using this as some sort of barometer of objective quality and value even after i've explained it to you
f you think your opinion is more accurate than the current music professionals
quote:it's possible. also, i acknowledged that they may intentionally be trying to get smaller to have a higher quality product. it's been done by marching bands for decades. or, maybe they just aren't recruiting hard enough.
You think LSU has some kind of special excuse.
the point is i asked you to prove the numbers are within their control. you haven't. you can't.
quote:no, they aren't. they might be deserved but they are not any sort of objective measurement at all. i'm sorry you don't understand that.
The countless awards Frank, Linda, and Roy have received are the testament to their knowledge and expertise
quote:in writing drill and teaching marching band, yes. they were lazy. i've explained specifically how. you were in kappa kappa psi, weren't you? that would explain a lot.
(you said they were lazy)
quote:and you are misrepresenting what i said. frank and crew had a very limited understanding of marching band but they had some darn good scholarship money to work with. you seem to be emotionally overinvested in college marching band.
your opinions are not based on the opinions of professionals, just you
ftr, none of these points has anything to do with any concert groups. totally different discussion.
Posted on 9/13/18 at 5:32 pm to Irish LSU Fan
quote:not for marching band alone. please tell me you don't think frank was drawing huge numbers of students from around the nation to come to lsu merely for tiger band. that's absurd.
Frank drew folks from near and far
he had a ton of scholarship money to work with comparatively and i am a recipient of that oos money. THAT'S what drew MUSIC MAJORS who signed up for the extra tiger band money which was also more than other schools. that situation has changed now. but i know all of this doesn't help your hate narrative
Posted on 9/13/18 at 5:33 pm to tigerbandlover
quote:NNNOOOOOOOOOO! STOP. you're hurting irish's ears!!!!
it definitely helps to further explain reduced numbers of prospective students in the recent years
Posted on 9/13/18 at 5:40 pm to tigerbandlover
quote:btw, this is hyperbole. nationally, wickes is just another good college director. pretty much every large music school has "legends" at that school who are very competent directors, understand good sound, etc. wickes was great with the baton, i'll give him that. second to none. his teaching style was intimidation. he was a jerk in rehearsal and as a person. some kappa kappa psi people might tell you different but, they were a special breed themselves. in all fairness, some people say he mellowed out towards the end of his career.
Wickes is a legend
it was especially embarrassing when wickes would be referred to as "dr. wickes." the music majors would snicker.
Posted on 9/13/18 at 5:49 pm to bfniii
quote:
he had a ton of scholarship money to work with
quote:
THAT'S what drew MUSIC MAJORS
Not true. Northwestern, ULL, etc. all had better scholarship packages than LSU throughout the Wickes, Moorhouse, King years. These smaller schools gave students scholarship $ AND room & board. This routinely would add up to considerably more than Frank could offer at LSU. The largest scholarship Frank could give to an undergrad was $1500.00.
quote:Now, before you start touting OOS scholarships, the band department ONLY gave OOS to non-music majors.
not for marching band alone. please tell me you don't think frank was drawing huge numbers of students from around the nation to come to lsu merely for tiger band. that's absurd.
The OOS scholarships Frank gave (paid all tuition for 4 years) was ONLY for non-music majors AND they were required to be in marching band. Everywhere Frank guest conducted, or had a former student as a band director, were selling this. At one time (according to Linda), there were about 60-70 Tiger Band students on this scholarship. Please don't tell me Frank did not draw huge numbers from around the US just for Tiger Band!
Posted on 9/13/18 at 5:57 pm to bfniii
quote:
wickes is just another good college director.
I guess that's why he has been president of ABA, CBDNA, NBA, etc., etc. I guess that's why he has received just about EVERY award a band director can get. It is laughable (and sad) that YOU think you know more than all of these organizations and their leadership.
quote:
it was especially embarrassing when wickes would be referred to as "dr. wickes." the music majors would snicker.
Sad that you have an ax to grind with Frank. I'm sorry about whatever it was that he did to you. You should probably let it go.
Posted on 9/13/18 at 5:57 pm to Irish LSU Fan
quote:
I hope the Golden Girls and Color Guard (who by the way have their lowest membership in 10-15 years) can survive the current administration.
I do, too. I danced for LSU when they still had Tigerettes (twirling line that performed along with Golden Girls). At that time, the Tigerettes were more prestigious. There was a feature twirler at pregame and she could grab the attention of the entire stadium. They gradually fell out of favor because the band director chose to feature the Golden Girls more. Fewer and fewer competed for the position because they were not the focus. The same thing is now happening to the Golden Girls. It is a shame because the girls work hard. They show up in August and sweat through untold hours. They learn a new show every Monday and audition for that show on Wednesday. I will never forget my first Spring semester when I realized that other students actually had time off.
I hope the Golden Girls survive. I would like to see a good twirling line back at LSU. There is room for them all.
Posted on 9/13/18 at 6:04 pm to bfniii
Why has the SOM changed the process? What was wrong with the way it was? Why not leave the process in place that produced a strong 325 since the Wickes era?
Posted on 9/13/18 at 6:04 pm to LouisianaLonghorn
quote:
I never said that Texas has a better band. It's certainly bigger and louder (Longhorn Band is over 400 members), but I didn't say they are better.
Fun fact: the director of the Longhorn Band, Dr. Scott Hanna, is an LSU grad, one of those great players Wickes was able to recruit out of the D.C. area.
GEAUX TIGERS
Posted on 9/13/18 at 6:12 pm to Irish LSU Fan
quote:
.try recruiting better. That's how Wickes, Moorhouse & King did it. That's how they were cutting around 100 every year just to get to 325. Now they can't even get 325 to show up. Not good for the future.
This is a reflection of the current state of curriculum requirements at the high school level. I have been a high school music teacher for years. Fewer schools still have a strong music program. Those that do have to fight to keep students in high school performing groups for a full four years. Financial pressures are causing high school students to try to be sophomores in college before they graduate high school.
There are fewer students to recruit because music programs are not valued by the powers that be, Music education is considered a peripheral frill. Trickle up issues are impacting LSU's Golden Band from Tigerland. The state of music education in Louisiana is beginning to show.
Posted on 9/13/18 at 6:15 pm to LouisianaLonghorn
I'm not proud of the OSU band, I hate OSU. I'm just not so small that I can't acknowledge someone else does something well. And besides, it's the BAND.
Posted on 9/13/18 at 6:16 pm to bfniii
quote:
this discussion is much ado about nothing. it's college band. tiger band is fine. they don't even have to be the best. just put something entertaining out there. some people are making a mountain out of a molehill
To be honest, as an LSU alum and a person who has gone to football games since childhood, I completely, 100% disagree. It saddens me to see a shrinking band. The march down victory hill, pregame, halftime, and even the song they play after the alma mater at the end of the game are special to me. Collectively, they hold a place in my heart for game day that rivals the game itself.
This post was edited on 9/13/18 at 6:19 pm
Posted on 9/13/18 at 6:26 pm to bfniii
quote:
maybe. maybe not. you can have 20 high quality players that can have a better sound and volume than 32 weaker players. this is why tiger band was always superior to other college bands - more music majors than others. there were more music majors because tiger band paid more than others. now, others have caught up and are paying more
Thank you! You are obviously an educated musician. I completely agree with you on quality vs. quantity. The science behind the overtone series makes 24 great players playing in tune better (and louder) than 32 players with some playing slightly out of tune.
As a former Tiger Band member, a dancer on the LSU line and an LSU alum with a Performance Bachelor degree, and a Masters of Music Ed, I completely agree with you. One problem that the university level is beginning to notice, however, is the effect of the curriculum requirements at the high school level in Louisiana on music programs. I have taught music in Louisiana for over 30 years. Students' graduation requirements are making it more and more difficult for students to choose a performance group (band, orchestra or choir) for four full years.
As far as the dance line, if a band director does not value the line, it will dwindle and, eventually dissolve.
Posted on 9/13/18 at 6:33 pm to Irish LSU Fan
Another thing that is dwindling the numbers.... Halftime shows were televised. You would see the girls dance on national television. When was the last time you saw that... even in the bowl game??
Posted on 9/13/18 at 6:40 pm to Meldedee
Let me just say this. I don't know the first thing about Tiger Band, the people involved, or marching bands in general. But compared to the usual low IQ threads you'll find on the rant, you guys have created an informative and interesting discussion. I don't know who is right, but thanks for the diversion. I actually enjoy reading this thread.
Posted on 9/13/18 at 6:53 pm to Thorny
quote:
the director of the Longhorn Band, Dr. Scott Hanna, is an LSU grad,
Hanna was my drum major for two years. He was also drum major for the Phantom Regiment, I believe. Guy's got credentials. He was a real life Richie Cunningham.
Posted on 9/13/18 at 7:11 pm to Irish LSU Fan
quote:you are wrong. i was a performance major and i was in tiger band for 4 years. i know for a fact that it's true.
Not true
quote:i doubt that they could offer the volume that lsu could offer. they might be able to cut some deals like that on fewer numbers.
This routinely would add up to considerably more than Frank could offer at LSU
anyway, this is beside the point. you are saying that frank and co were some master recruiters and you aren't including the money aspect that frank had behind him. and i'm not talking about in state schools. i'm talking about lsu's competition, i.e. sec schools, rice, usm, fsu, texas, conservatories, etc.
i'm not denying that frank was a good recruiter. i'm saying it's not necessarily a fair comparison to put the current directors against him and say they are negligent. times and conditions have changed. you have yet to prove that the current group is just not trying.
quote:further proving my point. frank had a lot of money at his disposal. music majors were getting money from the som (like me). non majors were getting money from tiger band. tiger band had the highest stipend in the sec when i was in band but other schools later started to be commensurate with lsu's numbers. i have no idea if that is the same today
the band department ONLY gave OOS to non-music majors
quote:ah, so frank had some help. you continue to make my point for me.
had a former student as a band director, were selling this
quote:first, you admit frank had lots of money to work with. then, you admit frank had tons of help. so, the conditions have changed right? so maybe you're being unfair with the current group. frank was at lsu a long time to build up those connections
Please don't tell me Frank did not draw huge numbers from around the US just for Tiger Band!
i'll say this again, students from all over the country were NOT applying to lsu in large numbers just because of frank and tiger band. that is misleading and an assertion you would have an exceptionally hard time proving. i would be willing to bet you were a kkp kind of person which explains your colorful and rather naive opinion of frank
Posted on 9/13/18 at 7:20 pm to Irish LSU Fan
quote:do you know how often the president of those organizations changes? moreover, do you know the nature of that office in those organizations? again, you keep using subjective criteria to try to prove something objective. frank NEVER got any of those accolades because he was great with the baton, even though he was.
I guess that's why he has been president of ABA, CBDNA, NBA, etc
quote:you love subjective awards don't you?
I guess that's why he has received just about EVERY award a band director can get
quote:i understand the nature of those things. again, you have done nothing but misrepresent what i'm saying. frank was like anyone else. he had good qualities and bad. calling him a legend is silly. jerry junkin has twice the stature in the business that frank ever had. that doesn't mean junkin is better, i played under both. it's just perception.
YOU think you know more than all of these organizations and their leadership
Posted on 9/13/18 at 7:26 pm to Smalls
quote:well, not sure what specifically you're referring to but, it was big news when all this went down re: roy. look, roy was doing some shady things but, he did make some interesting points. there did seem to be a money grab going on and roy got caught in the middle. he was an easy target because of his skeletons.
Why has the SOM changed the process?
quote:this is the point i'm making to irish. there's no way to quantify all these variables. irish quote a magazine article but i have no idea of the specifics or if they are applicable to lsu's particular situation. plus, the new directors have not been at lsu long on their own. i think we're being a bit hasty. let's give these guys some time and see what they build. so far, the product on the field is refreshing. tiger band had gotten incredibly passe and stale.
Why not leave the process in place that produced a strong 325 since the Wickes era?
this discussion has gone on way longer than necessary because irish is being obstinate and romanticizing wickes' tenure.
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