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Message
re: The Orgeron Extension Talk: Why?
Posted on 2/1/19 at 1:36 am to Buckeye Jeaux
Posted on 2/1/19 at 1:36 am to Buckeye Jeaux
quote:
If O goes 10-3 and hires a new OC, he'll be fine.
And there it is. The acceptance of consistent 3 Loss seasons. Hires a New OC, gets 2 years of OC development time, probably loses 3 the next year.....
Mickey?
1
Posted on 2/1/19 at 1:44 am to slackster
quote:
If he loses 3 games next season, barring an injury to Burrow, he should be on a massive hot seat.
Expect the same 3 base losses plus most likely Herman, the pick, in the Opener. These are all fast rising programs who have Offensive Identities/Coaches/Schemes. Don't expect Malzahn's Revenge Tour, coaching his plays, with a DTQB & RB to be the SOS. Everyone is set to improve as much or more than they were this year, that is their mandate for maintaining their jobs. Moorehead is a proven RPO innovator/implementer as former Penn State OC.
Very sobering if we start 0-1 vs TX.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 1:53 am to SEC Grapevine
Orgeron still does not have a Top down Philosophical Offensive Makeover approach because O&E have not proven qualified to do that. The approach is relying on the remaining players after graduation and Early Departures combined with the new Recruits to transform the team. It would make more sense to identify Coaching/Scheme weaknesses with CBTN analytics so you know what expertise you are lacking and need to change: It is how you Play the Game. If the OL is suspect or depleted...spread it out and speed it up: Compare his Off to ALA, CLEM, A&M, Texas.
Personnel usage by the top five CBTN rated FBS offenses in 2018. You can see that Saban tried to rely on his run game more than CLEM/OSU, and added complexity by varying Personnel which slows down play. SABAN used more 2 TE heavy run groupings - 2x as much as Ohio and Clem combined, rather than the more explosive 11, 10 groupings which is Modern Offense, all 4 of the NFL Playoff Semifinalist use it, none more than the Rams who went from last in Scoring to 1st in 1 season and are playing for the Super Bowl in season 2..ultimate validation in FBS & NFL.
Clemson needed to give Lawrence an offense that could maintain its high flying capabilities, but also keep it basic enough that the eighteen year old did not become overwhelmed. The results are a read based offense where Lawrence gets to focus on one read player. He has multiple plays where he has pre and post snap reads, but all are basic enough that Lawrence has been able to successfully run this championship level scheme. Successful RPO teams force teams to play man coverage on the wide receivers, which plays into Clemson’s hands because Lawrence has proven he can fit the ball into tight spaces. Clemson is more than willing to throw the ten yard out for a first down if the defense gives it to them.
Clemson also uses a number of bubble run pass options to give Lawrence high percentage throws and allow their play making wide receivers to turn short passes into big gains. Clemson runs the RPO more than any other team. Etienne leads the nation in rushing TDs and he has Passing TDs as well. Lawrence can also run it...really run it.
Below: Lawrence faking, coming to a stop on lower screen, then catching and passing Etienne who already had a lead: Etienne peak speed 21 mph, so Lawrence a bit faster on this play...shocked Etienne & Trevor's teammates.
Personnel usage by the top five CBTN rated FBS offenses in 2018. You can see that Saban tried to rely on his run game more than CLEM/OSU, and added complexity by varying Personnel which slows down play. SABAN used more 2 TE heavy run groupings - 2x as much as Ohio and Clem combined, rather than the more explosive 11, 10 groupings which is Modern Offense, all 4 of the NFL Playoff Semifinalist use it, none more than the Rams who went from last in Scoring to 1st in 1 season and are playing for the Super Bowl in season 2..ultimate validation in FBS & NFL.
Clemson needed to give Lawrence an offense that could maintain its high flying capabilities, but also keep it basic enough that the eighteen year old did not become overwhelmed. The results are a read based offense where Lawrence gets to focus on one read player. He has multiple plays where he has pre and post snap reads, but all are basic enough that Lawrence has been able to successfully run this championship level scheme. Successful RPO teams force teams to play man coverage on the wide receivers, which plays into Clemson’s hands because Lawrence has proven he can fit the ball into tight spaces. Clemson is more than willing to throw the ten yard out for a first down if the defense gives it to them.
Clemson also uses a number of bubble run pass options to give Lawrence high percentage throws and allow their play making wide receivers to turn short passes into big gains. Clemson runs the RPO more than any other team. Etienne leads the nation in rushing TDs and he has Passing TDs as well. Lawrence can also run it...really run it.
Below: Lawrence faking, coming to a stop on lower screen, then catching and passing Etienne who already had a lead: Etienne peak speed 21 mph, so Lawrence a bit faster on this play...shocked Etienne & Trevor's teammates.
quote:
1. Use the same personnel as much as possible. Defensive coordinators have to make their decisions based on your personnel, not your formation. Don’t give them anything to work with. All offenses try to make defenses guess incorrectly. That’s the trick behind any option concept: isolate specific defenders, make them guess, and punish them for that choice. Moorhead tries to make defensive coordinators guess wrong, too. In 2016, as Penn State was making its run to the Big Ten title, Moorhead’s offense ran more than 98 percent of its plays out of 11 personnel (one running back, one tight end, three receivers). The numbers barely changed last year. A Moorhead offense can morph into plenty of looks, and players can substitute within their position groups, but the defense can’t glean anything from the players coming on and off the field. “Defensive coordinators, they don’t really know what formation you’re going to line up in,” Moorhead says. “So when you’re in a certain personnel grouping, you have to make a defensive call, and it’s gotta match up against any formation they can align in.
By the time the defense sees the formation, it’s too late to call a play.
“So with us never switching personnel, we can align in three different formations with the tight end attached, we can align in two different formations with the tight end detached, and then we can line up in three different empty[-backfield] formations. And we haven’t taken anybody out of the game.” ”
quote:
One of the reasons we went to this RPO style of offense was due to the availability (or lack thereof) of offensive linemen. The other was that it spread the defense out and made the number of people in the box which had to be accounted for by the blockers somewhat predictable. And finally because we can have an option read on every running play, which requires our opponents to work on their option responsibilities prior to playing us.
Having the QB “Read” the defensive end on the zone allows him to essentially become an “extra blocker,” simply by his assignment. In other words, by “Reading” the defensive end that gives us seven people in the box offensively (5 linemen, 1 RB and 1 QB) that must be accounted for by the defense.
This post was edited on 2/1/19 at 3:31 am
Posted on 2/1/19 at 6:25 am to Freauxzen
quote:
And there it is. The acceptance of consistent 3 Loss seasons. Hires a New OC, gets 2 years of OC development time, probably loses 3 the next year.....
3 losses, Top-10 final ranking, NY6 win (or loss)... yeah, O keeps his job.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 6:40 am to SammyTiger
quote:
But if next year he goes 10-3 again, then we’ve just extended our co tract with a guy we have to start asking the hard questions about
Even if you extend him if he has a bad year or two he can still be fired. There's no good reason not to extend except that you just don't like the guy.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 6:46 am to SEC Grapevine
quote:
One of the reasons we went to this RPO style of offense was due to the availability (or lack thereof) of offensive linemen. The other was that it spread the defense out and made the number of people in the box which had to be accounted for by the blockers somewhat predictable. And finally because we can have an option read on every running play, which requires our opponents to work on their option responsibilities prior to playing us.
Yeap. It's utterly ridiculous how clueless some are on this board. LSU could have future draft picks at every position and still would not win the CFP. It's not an insult to Ed, it's just the truth.
It isn't exclusively an lack of knowledge by Ensminger either. He is very knowledgeable and I'm sure knows of some of these philosophies. He just REFUSES to learn, and REFUSES to believe that it is better than what he knows.
The only difference between Steve Ensminger and Cam Cameron is that they have different names and that Ensminger lines up in shotgun more and tries to call more passing plays. I knew this was going to happen when they asked Ed what he was going to do to get some more innovation on the staff and Ed responded that all passing is the same - a slant is a slant and a hook is a hook. When asked if he could do anything better this year - Steve thought about it and responded no.
Ed has also shown that he is not any better than Miles when it comes to innovation and changing coordinators. E is his buddy and he refused to hold him accountable. This coaching staff is so similar to the one that was in place when Miles is here that its absolutely humorous when people say how much better they are. It's nearly the same dang staff.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 6:54 am to TrevRollings29
Prior to the departure of Narcisse, LSU had plans to use him much like the Saints have used Taysom Hill. I will always wonder how much more effective the offense could have been. This year will be very telling.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 7:14 am to TrevRollings29
Want to see if the Team is getting better or not and where the weaknesses are? Then take this free offer and publish it here.
CBTN: Coaching by the Numbers is like an audit of the entire program and measures strengths & improvement over 5 yrs as compared to their Conference Average. If I were an AD/HC/OC/President I would want to know this information. Full disclosure vs hype.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 7:37 am to Dubaitiger
quote:
Recruiting myth is true, need a coach signed for 4-5 years so other coaches cannot negative recruit plus that player or parent may ask him how long is he under contract
No, no it’s not.
quote:
Strong 2019 class and 2020 class is ranked #2 now
Let’s see how well these classes pan out in several years. Miles annually had top 5 classes.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 7:49 am to bencoleman
I just Can’t imagine where giving him an extension for “recruiting purposes” without extending his buyout too.
Anyone can always use anything to negatively recruit, but if we start the season 10-0 with a win over Texas and we’re a top 5 team do you think “we’ll he only has 2 more seasons on his contract” is an effective tool?
If he comes out and has a good season have the extension ready before signing day.
Anyone can always use anything to negatively recruit, but if we start the season 10-0 with a win over Texas and we’re a top 5 team do you think “we’ll he only has 2 more seasons on his contract” is an effective tool?
If he comes out and has a good season have the extension ready before signing day.
This post was edited on 2/1/19 at 7:53 am
Posted on 2/1/19 at 7:59 am to SammyTiger
quote:
If he comes out and has a good season have the extension ready before signing day
frick that. Why not just go to a year to year contract. Make him prove himself every year. I think that's the best idea.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 8:01 am to Buckeye Jeaux
quote:
3 losses, Top-10 final ranking, NY6 win (or loss)... yeah, O keeps his job.
So you're ok with 3 losses and no division, conference title and no Playoff appearance as long as we finish in the Top 10?
Posted on 2/1/19 at 8:06 am to bencoleman
quote:
frick that. Why not just go to a year to year contract. Make him prove himself every year. I think that's the best idea.
We have the luxury of having another uear to make a decision.
2017 was not a good year
2018 was much much better year
Why not see which one is the fluke? Why not see if we’re trending up or peaking?
Having three years left on a contract is not the same as year to year and you know it.
This isn’t a smart move.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 8:17 am to SammyTiger
quote:
This isn’t a smart move
What isn't?
Year to year?
I think it's an excellent idea.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 8:19 am to Freauxzen
quote:
So you're ok with 3 losses and no division, conference title and no Playoff appearance as long as we finish in the Top 10?
This is the moving goal post from the pro-O's. I swear I thought I remembered something when we fired Les and hired him because we wanted to compete for championships, now it's our goal to finish in the top 3 in the SEC-W and in the Top 10, and if we do, extend the contract.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 8:21 am to LSUgrad1998
Again, extendhim at the same salary with no new guaranteed money. That is all they have to do. His buyout remains the same as it is this exact moment and just tack on years to give him this “security” in the eyes of outsiders. It’s not that tough.
He in no way deserves a monetary boost nor more guarantees. If they meet the expectations some are heaping in them for next year than more money should be discussed.
He in no way deserves a monetary boost nor more guarantees. If they meet the expectations some are heaping in them for next year than more money should be discussed.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 8:23 am to RagingCajun3195
quote:
Yeah I don’t get it. You only extend a coach If you’re worried about them possibly leaving once their contract is up. Where is he going to go?
I don't agree with the contract extension at this time either, but that's not the only reason you extend a contract. Another major reason would be the perceived stability of the program as seen through the eyes of recruits.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 8:23 am to Commando
quote:
This is the moving goal post from the pro-O's. I swear
Nobody's moving any goalposts. The man has assembled a decent coaching staff, had a top ten finish and is doing well recruiting. Why can't the university show the guy that they're confident that the guy is moving the program in the right direction without a bunch of haters freaking out?
Posted on 2/1/19 at 8:28 am to SammyTiger
quote:
We have the luxury of having another uear to make a decision.
2017 was not a good year
2018 was much much better year
Why not see which one is the fluke? Why not see if we’re trending up or peaking?
Having three years left on a contract is not the same as year to year and you know it.
This isn’t a smart move.
This is why you people are posting on a message board and not running anything...
2017 team overachieved and could have done better
2018 team overachieved and could have done better
Recruiting is improving
One of the biggest issues of a HC extension is keeping continuity in recruiting and keeping the staff together. If CEO does not have a vote of confidence of the Admin then several of these coaches walk. That seems to be ok with a lot of folks here but I sense it is LSU's goal to calm the waters in LSU FB program and try to build something.
You dont have to like it but keeping a coach in lame duck status is a slow death to the program. Keeping a underachieving coach like Miles is a slow death too and that is why he was fired. It will be the determining factor to CEO's length of stay too in the long run.
This a $100 Mill business and the people who run it are not going to just keep folding their hand every year. At some point they are going to stand pat and take their chances.
Posted on 2/1/19 at 8:37 am to GetmorewithLes
quote:
2017 team overachieved and could have done better
You don’t overachieve because your coach and team shite the bed early in the season. LSU played a shite schedule in 2017 and still had 4 losses. Again, this is you moving the goal posts for O. Now his poor coaching and team management early and not being a total disaster = overachieving.
Again, give him an extension at same salary and no new guaranteed money. He proves himself next year and gets the raise and more guarantees.
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