re: Skip Thrown Under the Bus - Is it True?

All the blame can't be placed on the coaches. The NCAA and MLB could fix the problem themselves. The NCAA could allow more scholarships and MLB could not draft out of high school. This would give college teams more quality arms to throw in a game / series so one individual pitcher isn't overused.

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rick: did you see how posada framed that ball right there. that comes from being a veteran in this league. you dont see rookie catchers framing a ball like that. these are the little things that win you ball games. did i ever tell you my favorite person in the world is buddy songy because neither one of us ever shut the frick up?

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that pretty much sums it up. Most annoying color guy in baseball. All he does is suck off each and every player that is mentioned during the telecast. even if that player isnt good. "miguel cabrera is going to win gold gloves at 1B, look at that defense"

what a joke

There's also many, many variables thrown in on a guys arm, and when it will give out besides pitch counts and use.

I mean some guys could throw 30 pitches on a consistent basis and genetically, his arm may give out at the same time as a guy that throws 100 pitches consistently.

There's an amount of uncertainly with genetics and heredity coupled with how well he takes care of himself......not everything is pitch counts.

Skip's trying to win ballgames.....Ben was trying to win ballgames and wanted the ball just as much as Skip wanted to give it to him.

In that whole USAToday article interviewing Ben I didn't hear him one time complain about being overused by Skip. If he's not bitter, then why should anyone else be bitter?

Bunch of sissies these days.

Cy Young pitched 21 years and had 749 complete games out of 815 starts.

Cy Young

They must have pitched under hand from 10 feet away from the plate. Those numbers are just insane.

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Big Ben's relative lack of success in MLB can be blamed on one thing: lack of an effective breaking pitch. Ben had NO slider whatsoever, and a pretty weak curve. But the scouts were all just so enamored of that 100+ mph heater he threw.

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keep telling yourself that

This thread ==
Talk to Nolan Ryan about high pitch counts - he banned pitch counts for the Rangers. From the same deadspin article linked in someone else's post..."Ryan's argument is that high pitch totals build up arm strength, thus preventing injuries." I agree with him.

So studies show the more you throw, the greater chance of injury? Well no shite - anything else the researchers of the obvious want to throw out there? Maybe driving more often increases the likelihood you'll be in a wreck?

The problem as I see it is multi-tiered:

1. Mechanics. Kids are not taught proper mechanics more often than not. This is particularly true with breaking pitches. Many kids are taught to snap the wrist and in the process, they often pull down the elbow. Truth is, a curveball, slider, cutter, change-up, splitty, whatever, should all be thrown using hand placement & positioning, not motion. There are many instructional videos on this but if you are serious about your kid as a future pitcher & have money to burn, get the 90 mph club training videos (~$450).

2. Coaches. Pitch count is just a number; injury, soreness, etc is something that should be monitored for by coaches, trainers, and parents. One kid may be fine throwing 500 pitches, another, only 5. You can't legislate care and expect to not hold others back. Having a hard fixed pitch count is like the no child left behind act for baseball.

3. Not throwing enough. I'm from the same school of thought as Ryan. Pitchers I know that grew up always throwing the ball have no problem throwing the ball a high number of times. The ones who have been limited are simply not in shape to go higher. If a kid can throw 100 pitches with no soreness, injuries, etc, let him. Just like any other activity, you have to train & develope to pitch. Artificially holding a pitcher back is like telling a marathon runner they can only train by running sprints.

Bottom line is shite happens. Limiting the way one can prepare and how well one is allowed to perform won't prevent shite from happening. What's next? Are we going to tell our runners to run more slowly, as running at high speeds may mean they are more likely to pull a hammy or twist an ankle?

I love your hatred of skip bertman, it gets me through the day

HOWEVUH I am a bit perplexed at how Skip Bertman has anything to do with with Ben McDonald's MLB career.


he signed very late, had two minor league assignments and went to the Majors in 1989 where he made 6 relief appearances

he was permanently called up in 1990, he started 21 games, went 8-5

1991 21 games, 6-8

1990 and 1991 the Orioles were babying him by limiting his starts and keeping his pitch counts down. He had no arm problems and was struggling developing an out pitch besides his 2 seam and 4 seam fastballs.

1992 35 games 13-13

1993 34 games 13-14

1994 24 games 14-7, he first developed tendonitis is his pitching arm and his compensating for the tendonitis caused stress on his rotator cuff, had his first rotator cuff surgery

in 1995 he started 14 games because of rotator cuff/shoulder problems and went 3-6, had his second rotator cuff surgery

traded to milwaukee

1996 35 games 12-10

1997 21 games 8-7 and blew out his shoulder for good, got traded to Cleveland had his third rotator cuff surgery and retired


Rick Sutcliffe was a mentor to Ben McDonald so no doubt he is biased in his appraisal of Ben's career but McDonald had no arm problems until 5 years after he left LSU. How is that Skip Bertman's fault?


now Lane Mestepey I will give you. He was overused as a 85mph fastball/control type of guy and had 22 complete games in 2 years which is pretty ridiculous

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So studies show the more you throw, the greater chance of injury? Well no shite - anything else the researchers of the obvious want to throw out there? Maybe driving more often increases the likelihood you'll be in a wreck?

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You should pubmed Andrews JR if you're interested in what the studies actually say. I can assure you that his work in throwing kinetics is much more involved then 'the more you throw, the greater the chance of injury'.

Prior was also on the boydsworld overused study list with Mestepey from college and didn't break down for 5 years just like Ben. Maybe some people just take longer to break down.