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re: Proof that Chris Jackson was the greatest college player (other than Pete)
Posted on 12/25/16 at 9:06 pm to beauxroux
Posted on 12/25/16 at 9:06 pm to beauxroux
quote:
I won't convince you to trust my non-perfect memory-- but these eyes know what they saw. And watching those two play at LSU (even with my 25-year old memory) you knew greatness when you saw CJ.
The thing is, there's just no response to this. You remember CJ as being better, trust both your memory and scouting abilities completely, and consider it as overriding the statistical difference. That's fine, but it means the argument you're making boils down to, "CJ was better, trust me, I watched him play." If you were a basketball scout talking about two players you watched play yesterday, that might be pretty convincing to me. But in this case, there's just nothing about that argument that compels me to overlook the stats.
quote:
With Shaq-- you knew greatness was to come.
Shaq was a two-time SEC Player of the Year. He was the National Player of the Year as a Sophomore. The greatness was not "to come" for Shaq; it was already there for both guys.
1
Posted on 12/25/16 at 9:21 pm to PiscesTiger
Chris was unbelievable and despite what people say he started off with a great NBA career then the Muslim got him. Then eventually he was basically ray riced from the league but his production had also suffered greatly.
Posted on 12/25/16 at 9:27 pm to kylesch87
Not only saying, "Trust me."
You like Shaq's stats better. No real scout or evaluator bases his decision on stats only. So, we simply will have to agree to disagree.
quote:
Chris Jackson, G, Louisiana State (43-21, .672; 29 ppg, 3 rpg, 3.6 apg, 86.3 FT%, 37.2 3FG%) NCAA consensus first-team All-American in 1989 and 1990. Compiled highest scoring average for a freshman in NCAA history (30.2 ppg). Ranked among the nation's leading scorers in 1989 (2nd) and 1990 (8th). Only player to compile single-game scoring outbursts higher than Pete Maravich in SEC competition against Ole Miss (55), Florida (53) and Tennessee (50). Had 28 contests with at least 30 points. Probably would have moved way up the list if he had remained in college another year or two.
You like Shaq's stats better. No real scout or evaluator bases his decision on stats only. So, we simply will have to agree to disagree.
This post was edited on 12/25/16 at 9:30 pm
Posted on 12/26/16 at 9:17 am to beauxroux
Your quote is from a site that ranks Shaq ahead of Chris Jackson: CJ #53; Shaq #36. And the text you quoted is not a scouting based analysis anyway, it's all stats.
I've said previously that I would be happy to consider scouting and evaluation information from a credible source; if you have scouting reports from professional scouts from that time period I would love to read them. Not even just for the sake of this discussion, that would just be super interesting anyway. But since neither you nor Shaq is a professional scout (to the best of my knowledge), I would need a better source to override Shaq's statistical advantage.
quote:
You like Shaq's stats better. No real scout or evaluator bases his decision on stats only. So, we simply will have to agree to disagree.
I've said previously that I would be happy to consider scouting and evaluation information from a credible source; if you have scouting reports from professional scouts from that time period I would love to read them. Not even just for the sake of this discussion, that would just be super interesting anyway. But since neither you nor Shaq is a professional scout (to the best of my knowledge), I would need a better source to override Shaq's statistical advantage.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 9:19 am to kylesch87
Which player had the better PPG in their first two years?
A: Chris Jackson
A: Chris Jackson
Posted on 12/26/16 at 9:31 am to El Campo Tiger
quote:
Which player had the better PPG in their first two years?
A: Chris Jackson
Are you aware that defense and rebounding are part of basketball also?
I've outlined both players stats already in this thread; if you think that Chris Jackson has a statistical case to be made for being the superior player you will have to do more than just say that he scored more points. Take all of the stats into account for both players and show that Jackson's offensive edge outweighs Shaq's edges in defense and rebounding.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 9:38 am to ApexTiger
quote:
I was there! In the summit
Yep, I was there too- 2nd row seats!
Posted on 12/26/16 at 10:04 am to kylesch87
quote:
Are you aware that defense and rebounding are part of basketball also
Chris Jackson also killed it in steals and assists.
You could build a case for either, but I would rather have Chris Jackson than Shaquille O'Neal. Dude could shoot and was unstoppable on the break.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 10:18 am to El Campo Tiger
quote:
Chris Jackson also killed it in steals and assists.
One of those is an offensive stat, and neither has anything to do with rebounding. And I wouldn't exactly say he "killed it" in either stat; his steals per game would rank 213th from 93 to today, and his assists would not be in the top 240. Certainly good assist and steal numbers, but nowhere close to Shaq's rankings in rebounds and blocks.
If you CJ's steals and assists make up for Shaq's edge in blocks and rebounds, just show your work. I've done the work previously in this thread to show that Shaq has the superior statistical resume, and I accounted for points, steals, and assists in those posts.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 10:30 am to kylesch87
My memory is that early on when CJ was establishing himself he was more prone to play a more team oriented game and while he still got his points was more of a point guard.
After the Florida game where he went off on national t.v., Dale just started running that iso set where everyone moved to one side of the court and cut him loose.
It was very entertaining because he was so talented, but it set a precedent I thought that carried over to the next year where he pretty much wanted to run the iso all the time and the offense was awkward and dysfunctional when they tried to get the other talented folks like Shaq, Stanley and Vernell involved.
After the Florida game where he went off on national t.v., Dale just started running that iso set where everyone moved to one side of the court and cut him loose.
It was very entertaining because he was so talented, but it set a precedent I thought that carried over to the next year where he pretty much wanted to run the iso all the time and the offense was awkward and dysfunctional when they tried to get the other talented folks like Shaq, Stanley and Vernell involved.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 10:41 am to kylesch87
quote:
kylesch87
You're not putting enough stock into PPG.
That's what puts Chris over Shaq.
And you shouldn't include Shaq's junior year when comparing the two because Chris didn't play a junior year.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 10:47 am to El Campo Tiger
Glad to see that everyone is still at odds over CJ and Shaq.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 11:12 am to PiscesTiger
I did not miss a home game for nine years during that era. I was an insane diehard.I saw them all.
Chris Jackson was EASILY my favorite all-time LSU player. He was the basketball honey badger. See a guy that didn't see the basketball honey badger may not understand what was truly unique about him. It's like when a guy tells you some other Corner-back had better stats or honors than Tyrann and it's clear they missed the "essence" of what it meant to be the honey badger. And I think people miss that about CJ. He had no mercy on the court. He played the game at another level.
Shaq had the NBA career. He's the all-time LSU ambassador and a once in a lifetime physical specimen. But Chris Jackson was IMHO the best LSU college player (other than Pete) and it's not close for me.
And mad man love for the other earlier guards- Ethan Martin,Willie Sims, Derrick Taylor and Darryl Joe too.
Chris Jackson was EASILY my favorite all-time LSU player. He was the basketball honey badger. See a guy that didn't see the basketball honey badger may not understand what was truly unique about him. It's like when a guy tells you some other Corner-back had better stats or honors than Tyrann and it's clear they missed the "essence" of what it meant to be the honey badger. And I think people miss that about CJ. He had no mercy on the court. He played the game at another level.
Shaq had the NBA career. He's the all-time LSU ambassador and a once in a lifetime physical specimen. But Chris Jackson was IMHO the best LSU college player (other than Pete) and it's not close for me.
And mad man love for the other earlier guards- Ethan Martin,Willie Sims, Derrick Taylor and Darryl Joe too.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 11:26 am to El Campo Tiger
quote:
You're not putting enough stock into PPG.
That's what puts Chris over Shaq.
I value each point as being worth one point. I even used points as the basic unit of value. If you disagree with my conclusion than post your formula. I've gone over this already; if you really want me to re-post the step-by-step analysis I will, but I've already shown that a reasonable attempt to combine all the stats for both players gives Shaq the advantage. How many points should 1 point be worth?
quote:
And you shouldn't include Shaq's junior year when comparing the two because Chris didn't play a junior year.
The discussion is about which player was the better college player, so I used all of their college stats. There wont be too much difference leaving out Shaq's Junior year though, so when you post your own analysis feel free to leave it out.
*edited for clarity in paragraph 1
This post was edited on 12/26/16 at 11:35 am
Posted on 12/26/16 at 11:33 am to Lsupimp
quote:
It's like when a guy tells you some other Corner-back had better stats or honors than Tyrann and it's clear they missed the "essence" of what it meant to be the honey badger.
It also means they aren't looking at the stats. Tyrann's stats are the best case to be made for him. He forced 11 fumbles in two years! That's the all-time SEC career record! He had 6 sacks and 4 picks in two seasons. 16 tackles for loss. 93 solo tackles.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 1:14 pm to kylesch87
Youre just gonna have to deal with people thinking their opinions outweigh facts.
Ive had posters tell me that stats are subjective.
Ive had posters tell me that stats are subjective.
This post was edited on 12/26/16 at 1:15 pm
Posted on 12/26/16 at 3:59 pm to soccerfüt
quote:
I played against CJ in a pickup game when he was a sophomore. Lightening fast. To experience attempting to guard him was humbling. He was a nice fellow as well.
Well, was he 6-0 or was he 5-10? Getting contradicting info on this.
This post was edited on 12/26/16 at 4:01 pm
Posted on 12/26/16 at 4:05 pm to Rickdaddy4188
quote:
Ive had posters tell me that stats are subjective.
Stats are not subjective-- standards to be included can be weird. For example-- the best FT shooter ever, in NBA is Chris Jackson at 90.5%. Although you won't find his name in the books. Why? Despite shooting over 1100 FTs, the "requirement" to be included is 1200. CJ finished his career 39 FTs shy of that mark.
Posted on 12/26/16 at 4:12 pm to kylesch87
Serious question: in your statistical analysis, when Shaq gets an offensive rebound and slams it for two points-- how many points do you give him?
I submit, in that case, if you give him any points for the rebound, your system is unfairly skewed to reward big men and not point guards.
I submit, in that case, if you give him any points for the rebound, your system is unfairly skewed to reward big men and not point guards.
This post was edited on 12/26/16 at 4:13 pm
Posted on 12/26/16 at 4:35 pm to kylesch87
Shaq vs. Chris Jackson college stats
Shaq
PPG: 21.6
RPG: 13.5
APG: 1.7
BPG: 4.6
SPG: 1.2
CJ
PPG: 29.0
RPG: 3.0
APG: 3.6
BPG: 0.1
SPG: 1.9
I'll do an analysis like you did. CJ had 7.4 more points a game and 1.9 more assists per game. Assuming every assist results in 2 points and not 3 - this gives CJ 4 additional points per game. So, CJ accounted for 11.5 more points per game than Shaq. And yes I rounded up bc at least one assist per game was a 3 point score.
Shaq had 10.5 more rebounds per game. Since roughly 1/2 were on offensive side where he slammed them back-- points have already been accounted for in his points per game. This means 6 rebounds more per game were on the defensive side. If I give a generous point for each, Shaq closes the point gap to 5.5 points-- CJ still leads.
With a 4.5 block per game lead-- I give Shaq 4 points. This is calculated bc most players shoot less than 50%-- so more than half the blocks would have been missed anyway. So only 2 shots would have scored. Shaq still behind by 1.5 points.
CJ still leads and if you count steals, the gap widens. The final nail in the coffin is the eye test. CJ was refined and polished. Shaq was raw. The eye test goes to CJ.
So by my accounting-- CJ wins.
Shaq
PPG: 21.6
RPG: 13.5
APG: 1.7
BPG: 4.6
SPG: 1.2
CJ
PPG: 29.0
RPG: 3.0
APG: 3.6
BPG: 0.1
SPG: 1.9
I'll do an analysis like you did. CJ had 7.4 more points a game and 1.9 more assists per game. Assuming every assist results in 2 points and not 3 - this gives CJ 4 additional points per game. So, CJ accounted for 11.5 more points per game than Shaq. And yes I rounded up bc at least one assist per game was a 3 point score.
Shaq had 10.5 more rebounds per game. Since roughly 1/2 were on offensive side where he slammed them back-- points have already been accounted for in his points per game. This means 6 rebounds more per game were on the defensive side. If I give a generous point for each, Shaq closes the point gap to 5.5 points-- CJ still leads.
With a 4.5 block per game lead-- I give Shaq 4 points. This is calculated bc most players shoot less than 50%-- so more than half the blocks would have been missed anyway. So only 2 shots would have scored. Shaq still behind by 1.5 points.
CJ still leads and if you count steals, the gap widens. The final nail in the coffin is the eye test. CJ was refined and polished. Shaq was raw. The eye test goes to CJ.
So by my accounting-- CJ wins.
This post was edited on 12/26/16 at 4:37 pm
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