re: Poll - Rank LSU&#39;s head coaches for the past 50 years...

Posted by Ace Midnight

Between sanity and madness

Member since Dec 2006

94731 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 1:56 pm to horndog

quote:
You guys that think McClendon is better than Saban or Miles are just old and don't want to move away from the 70s when we didn't win shite.

Just not true. Had Saban stayed for two more years, I would probably rank him #1, or certainly #2 with a bullet. Miles has a chance to overtake Mac, but it's going to take a lot longer, or with better results than he had this year. And "the greatest" tag (for me) is more than Ws and Ls, but that has to be part of it. As I've asked rhetorically, Mac won 137 games-- isn't somebody going to have to threaten 100 wins, or at least average 10 wins/season for 7 or 8 to be mentioned in the same breath?

And for a perspective on 59 losses over 18 years - Dinardo and Hallman combined for 9 seasons, and 52 losses.

I think I did the math the other day - the 18 years after Mac was "retired", LSU went 108-81-6. Karma is a bitch. It took LSU less than 13 years to lose 59 games, and nearly 22 seasons (and 6 head coaches, excluding Rein and Hunter) to win 137.

Posted by King Joey

Just south of the DC/US border

Member since Mar 2004

12723 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 2:03 pm to Ace Midnight

quote:
isn't somebody going to have to threaten 100 wins

That's just illogical. That would exclude a coach who went undefeated 5 years in a row because he didn't get close to 100 wins.

quote:
or at least average 10 wins/season for 7 or 8

Why? Cholly Mac barely averaged 7 1/2 wins per season. And if you try and cherry pick a specific "good run" of his, then you completely destroy the previous "overall achievement" argument. Cholly Mac never had a stretch of 4 years as successful as Miles' nor a stretch of 5 years as successful as Saban's.

I love Cholly Mac, too, but he's simply not among the top 2 or 3 LSU coaches of all time. Top 2 or 3 people? Definitely. But strictly on coaching performance, he doesn't measure up.

Posted by Ace Midnight

Between sanity and madness

Member since Dec 2006

94731 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 3:00 pm to King Joey

quote:
That's just illogical. That would exclude a coach who went undefeated 5 years in a row because he didn't get close to 100 wins.

Merry Christmas Joey. When we get a coach that goes undefeated, even once (see Dietzel) that will definitely go into his "Reasons why he might be great" column. However, it doesn't look like I'll be running out of lead for my mechanical pencil anytime soon.

quote:
Why? Cholly Mac barely averaged 7 1/2 wins per season. And if you try and cherry pick a specific "good run" of his, then you completely destroy the previous "overall achievement" argument. Cholly Mac never had a stretch of 4 years as successful as Miles' nor a stretch of 5 years as successful as Saban's.

You can say that, it's supported - 1969 through 1973, Mac just couldn't get it done, 45-12-1 tie - that simply cannot compare to the giddy heights of 1.) Dietzel's last five years (his best) of 40-12-1, 2.) Saban's entire era of 48-16, or 3.) Miles 41-11 and waiting on 1.

And in "cherrypicking" Mac's legacy in such a way, just ignores the NINETY-TWO other games Mac won over his other 13 seasons. Yep, it's obvious, Mac just didn't measure up.

2 ...

Posted by King Joey

Just south of the DC/US border

Member since Mar 2004

12723 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 3:09 pm to Ace Midnight

quote:
And in "cherrypicking" Mac's legacy in such a way, just ignores the NINETY-TWO other games Mac won over his other 13 seasons.

And forty-something losses. That breaks down to about a 7-3-1 or so record for a span of over 2/3 of his career.

quote:
You can say that, it's supported - 1969 through 1973, Mac just couldn't get it done, 45-12-1 tie - that simply cannot compare to the giddy heights of 1.) Dietzel's last five years (his best) of 40-12-1, 2.) Saban's entire era of 48-16, or 3.) Miles 41-11 and waiting on 1.

The numbers you just gave are the proof: Saban's entire tenure here -- including the years rebuilding from DiNardo -- was better than the best 5 years of Cholly Mac's tenure. Miles' is about equal to it. When you take the worst and best of one coach, and it measures up to just the best of another coach, that's your answer.

Longevity is not a factor towards greatness. Successful longevity is a factor. And when you look at the long term of Coach Mac's longevity, he had a brief stretch where he flirted with the level of performance Saban and Miles have established, but was not able to maintain it. If you're really good for 4 years then not so good for a bunch more, you don't get more credit than a guy who was even better for 4 years and then was gone.

2 ...

Posted by TxTiger82

Member since Sep 2004

34324 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 3:13 pm to Ace Midnight

quote:
1. McClendon

Posted by Ace Midnight

Between sanity and madness

Member since Dec 2006

94731 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 3:30 pm to King Joey

quote:
If you're really good for 4 years then not so good for a bunch more, you don't get more credit than a guy who was even better for 4 years and then was gone.

But everybody else who stayed - lost and got fired. Mac had 16 winning seasons (and 1 even). In the 29 seasons since he was "retired" LSU has had 19 winning seasons, versus 10 losing. Doesn't that count for anything by comparison?

I guess that's a fundamental difference we have. Loyalty counts for me, as does persistence. You are (and I know it's not intentional, but I'm asking you to think about it) apparently rewarding abandonment, lack of loyalty, and/or quitting. Had Mac quit after 1973, took an AD job, or fulltime with the AFCA, would there be any question? His 12 year winning percentage would be right there with Miles and Saban. He stayed and had his two worst years, and that's what brings down his overall winning percentage, that he stayed and fought.

Football is a game of inches - Mac was just one play from being undefeated in 1969 and then they couldn't have kept him out of the big game, and all LSU fans know what the outcome would have been. Or 1967, a three loss season, by a total of 6 points.

How many times has LSU been undefeated in SEC play? 5. Mac was the DC for 2 and the head coach for 1. Bernie Moore was undefeated in conference play the first two years of the SEC.

Posted by LSUPERMAN

Louisiana

Member since Aug 2007

2952 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 3:31 pm to Ace Midnight

I think the problem with Mac as your #1 is that Charlie Mac probably had the most talented team in the SEC behind Alabama. Didn't the Bear once say LSU should only lose two games a year, Dallas and Green Bay.

I admit, I do not remember Mac as well as you but my grandfather does and believe me, him and alot of old timers will argue your rating of Mac. But list are objective so I can see your point.

Posted by Ace Midnight

Between sanity and madness

Member since Dec 2006

94731 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 3:32 pm to TxTiger82

quote:
No

That's all you have? "No"

At least Joey is saying why he disagrees. Of course I suggested that people rank them, but that's okay, defense of my #1 and #9 choices is the main purpose of this thread.

This post was edited on 12/23/08 at 3:34 pm

Posted by Cussian

Lake Charles, LA

Member since Mar 2008

1731 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 3:42 pm to King Joey

quote:
long term of Coach Mac's longevity, he had a brief stretch

If by brief you mean the 10 year stretch where he had a .724 record and finished in top 10 of AP poll 5 times, youre right - a mere shooting star. He has the most wins in LSU history, the most bowl wins, and most bowl appearances.

Nicky may have been LSUs greatest coach but he may very well have run the program into the ground as well. You can't judge greatness just based on a brief tenure and a lucky shot at the MNC. He had 2 mediocre seasons as well in 00 and 02. Arguably 04 as well. Part of being a great coach is ability to succeed over time, and he just doesn't fill that part of the definition.

Posted by sweet niblets

Virginia

Member since Oct 2007

886 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 3:58 pm to Ace Midnight

At first I didn't read that the first list was chronological order, and I thought you were putting Hallman above the likes of Miles and Saban. I laughed out loud.

Posted by craignettles

Member since Jan 2005

3300 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 4:02 pm to Cussian

Winning records, innovative play, good assistants, recruiting and intensity all go into what makes a good coach.

No coach on your list was as innovative as Dietzel, who got mostly above average players to play over their heads. That would be the reason he should be first.

In the sixties, Charley Mac may have been the best, but you have to include his horrible run from 73-79. The game left him behind and he had a difficult time recruiting high numbers of African - Americans, though he did pretty good with a few.

I would put Miles overall second, because of his ability to recruit and coach, with the proviso that next year will tell if this year was a fluke because of the falling apart due to the fact that we had no good QB play and the defense started to give it up.

Saban is next, then Arnsparger, despite the fact that Bill was not a great recruiter. He won mostly with the recruits that Stoval had and poor Mike Archer had to deal with the lack of recruits and his poor selection of so many players with problems.

Posted by jlsutiger

Member since Nov 2004

3523 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 6:00 pm to Ace Midnight

quote:
Ace Midnight

You are making terrible arguments to support Mac as "best LSU HEAD COACH". His time as DC is irrelevant to your requested ranking of "head coaches".

quote:
Had Saban stayed for two more years, I would probably rank him #1, or certainly #2 with a bullet. Miles has a chance to overtake Mac, but it's going to take a lot longer

So you are basically saying, whoever coaches the longest is the BEST coach right? We can't compare accomplishments such as record, championships, win % etc. Someone has to stay here as long as Mac in order to top him as "best head coach"? That is ridiculous, by now I see your criteria.

This post was edited on 12/23/08 at 6:01 pm

Posted by LSUGrad9295

Baton Rouge

Member since May 2007

36919 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 6:07 pm to jlsutiger

I have seen DiNardo ranked below Hallman on a couple of lists. How in the hell can anyone do that???

Posted by caliendo

Baton Rouge

Member since Sep 2007

555 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 6:14 pm to tigger1

quote:
1. Dietzel C..A+, R..B+, O..C 2. Saban C..A, R..A+, O..D+ 3. Miles C..B, R..A, O..B+ 4. McClendon C..B, R..B, O..A+ 5. Arnsparger C..A+, R..B, O..C+ 6. Stovall C..C+, R..A+, O..B 7. Dinardo C..C, R..B, O..B 8. Archer C..C, R..B, O..B- 9. Hallman C..C-, R..D+, O..C-

Why is Saban an A+ in recruiting and Miles is an A? Saban has never brought us a number 1 recruiting class (which Miles is about to do)

Posted by Carlos

Member since Nov 2006

2130 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 6:19 pm to Ace Midnight

quote:

You should see the thread I started on the Coaching Changes board where I asked if Hallman was the worst hire in big league football history. There were 4 or 5 to 1 arguing that Archer was worse. That's partly what prompted my tossing this question out to the Rant at large.

Amen, my brother, "how the hell is hallman not dead last?" on EVERYBODY's list.

Archer decimated the program so much that the job wasn't very desirable in 1990. Curley won at Southern Miss and this was before anyone knew the Brett Favre was a future HOF.

Young up-and-comers with mid-major experience are hired by major programs all the time. He was a young, a southerner, a Bear Bryant disciple, had a reputation for being a tough disciplinarian, and probably would have been hired by another major program had we not taken him.

Curley proved to be incapable of success at LSU, and it was a terrible hire in retrospect, but it's not like the athletic department made a blatantly terrible decision given their options at the time.

In 1987, 33 year old Archer was hired over Steve Spurrier and Mike Shanahan. Curley was hired over Mike Gottfried. Nobody wanted the job in 1990, simple as that. Ask yourself which was the worse hire?

Posted by TigerBait1127

Houston

Member since Jun 2005

47336 posts

Posted on 12/23/08 at 6:21 pm to littlenicky

quote:

Uhhh...do you even know what our record was this year?? Dude, we just finished our worst season in 10 years. Pay closer attention to the actual games.

you need to pay closer attention to our history