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re: LSU men’s bball has youngest rotation in SEC
Posted on 1/26/25 at 7:14 pm to mmcgrath
Posted on 1/26/25 at 7:14 pm to mmcgrath
quote:
Because I think shooting poorly from 3 was the difference in the game...
You also think Darius days would have been better off transferring before his senior season at lsu.
What you think could not possibly be more irrelevant.
0
Posted on 1/26/25 at 8:41 pm to Alt26
Unfortunately, McMahon just doesn’t have whatever “it” is, to have consistent success in this league. I thought the team played hard and hasn’t quit on him, but he doesn’t put them in the best position to win. His personnel decisions alone make you scratch your head. I don’t understand why McMahon would have a rotation in the last game with Fountain, R Miller, Givens, Dji and Cam on the court all at the same time. That lineup has a difficult time scoring or defending. He ran that unit out on several occasions. I was too lazy to look it up, but I can only imagine how bad the point differential was when they were in. I understand you have to give some guys rest, or foul trouble may force your hand, but that wasn’t the case against Bama. It reminded me of my nine year old team where we have to play everyone a required number of minutes.
Posted on 1/26/25 at 9:21 pm to mmcgrath
quote:
You think that shooting 3 of 23 from 3 was an "offensive approach" dictated by CMM?
I think taking 23 three pointers was an offensive approach…largely because the offensive structure/approach doesn’t generate many open looks outside of deep, often rushed, often contested 3 point attempts.
LSU is in the top 30% of the nation in 3 point attempts per game. Nearly 42% of their FG attempts are from 3. This, despite the fact they are currently ranked 300th in the nation in 3 point FG %.
What does all of that equal? A poor 3 point shooting team taking WAY too many 3 point shots. That’s either a byproduct of a bad approach or an offense where too many of the only looks are from 3.
For the 9 people who listened to his press conferences/post game commentary early in the season he continued to say “this is a good 3 point shooting team”…despite game after game of evidence to the contrary.Now 2/3rds of the way in you are seeing the byproduct of that flawed perception of his team. They are not, and have never been, a good 3 point shooting team. Yet, they continue to hoist them up like they are. Of course no one “plans” to go 3 for 23. But it’s clear part of the “plan” is to shoot far too many 3’s.
In other words, a poor offensive approach
Posted on 1/27/25 at 6:41 am to LsuEndo
quote:
I don’t understand why McMahon would have a rotation in the last game with Fountain, R Miller, Givens, Dji and Cam on the court all at the same time. That lineup has a difficult time scoring or defending. He ran that unit out on several occasions.
Yeah, I noticed that too and was also at a loss to understand the benefit of that combination.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 9:07 am to Alt26
quote:
I think taking 23 three pointers was an offensive approach…largely because the offensive structure/approach doesn’t generate many open looks outside of deep, often rushed, often contested 3 point attempts. LSU is in the top 30% of the nation in 3 point attempts per game. Nearly 42% of their FG attempts are from 3. This, despite the fact they are currently ranked 300th in the nation in 3 point FG %.
That’s where Reed would help tremendously. When they had him, they had more options for 2 pointers, and as the defense crashed down to help with Reed, it also created more open 3 pointers. Couple that with not having a true PG that can break down a defense, and it leaves you with limited 2 point options. Sears can break down a defense, but he is pressing in that role, and so he makes too many turnovers. Williams can do it too, but no one respects his shooting this year, so he also has a hard time at the point. Givens is worse than both.
Even with that, the Alabama game was by far their worst 3 point shooting game this season at 13% (3-23). Their next worst were 22.6% at Ole Miss (7-31), Pitt at 23.8% (5-21), and Texas A&M at 24.1% (7-29). Against Pitt, they took nearly 3 times as many 2 pointers as 3 pointers, since they had a low post game. The Ole Miss and Texas A&M games are the only 2 games this season in which they took more than half of their shots from 3 point range, and it wasn’t working well, but they didn’t have an answer to change that ratio. They did take a lot of 2 pointers against Alabama, because they got the 2nd most offensive rebounds of the year at 17, and almost got more steals than turnovers, which kept the game close. They’ve only gotten more steals than turnovers once this year, against Mississippi Valley, so that’s impressive to get so close against Alabama. If that continues, we will win a lot of games, but it is hard to imagine that continuing. That’s a hard recipe to duplicate. The options are limited. They have to hope that they will shoot better.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 9:23 am to Tiger Ugly
quote:
eah, I noticed that too and was also at a loss to understand the benefit of that combination.
Out of curiosity I went back and looked at the box score. It doesn't appear he ever had that exact line up on the floor. However, in every line up where Givens was on instead of Sears LSU had a negative point differential. The total point differential with Givens on the floor was -17 (LSU). With Sears on the floor it was +10 (LSU). Certainly that is not all on Givens. LSU was -15
with Cam on the floor too. But I think it does call into question some of the logic (if there is any) of both starting Givens and playing him nearly 11:00 in a game that he's probably not ready for (road game at #4 team in the country). For a team that struggles offensively it doesn't make a ton of sense to put your second leading scorer on the bench to start the game.
Same for R. Miller. LSU was in the game because of their physicality. That's simply not Miller's game (which was the EXACT scouting report on him as a prospect). Miller played 13:00. With him in the game LSU had only 10 rebounds. With him off LSU had 33. Hell, LSU had 11 rebounds with Green on the floor who only played 9:00 minutes.
NONE of that is to say Givens and Miller should never get playing time. They have to play to develop. But them getting double-digit minutes kind of speaks to what I've said all along. McMahon has a really poor feel for the game. That's where an HC can really make a difference. Every HC knows basic, and complex, "sets". They know the X's and O's. It's the guys though who can feel the flow of the game and make the constant slight adjustments on the fly who usually have success. Subbing a guy in who is a better matchup. Leaving a guy who is hot or impacting the game in a little longer than initially planned. Changing the tempo a bit. Extending the defense or just throwing in a change on defense out of a TO. Those are the ways coaches subtlety "steal" 10-12 points a game.
I think McMahon develops a game plan and his hesitant to deviate from it unless forced (foul trouble, injury, etc), even if the flow of the game is suggesting he should. However, I WILL give him credit. Saturday was the first time he played basically his entire roster. Some probably played a bit too much, but he didn't leave potential options on the bench. I don't think it's a coincidence LSU was more competitive in a game that looked like a expected blowout going into it.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 10:12 am to Alt26
quote:
The total point differential with Givens on the floor was -17 (LSU). With Sears on the floor it was +10 (LSU).
You mind sharing where you get this info from? I have been trying to find somewhere where I can see this but nothing I find really gets the granular
Posted on 1/27/25 at 10:17 am to Alt26
He has zero feel during games. His matchup combos and rotations are as bad as anyone I’ve ever seen. Reminds me of a poor man’s Matt Doherty
Posted on 1/27/25 at 10:22 am to Alt26
quote:
Out of curiosity I went back and looked at the box score. It doesn't appear he ever had that exact line up on the floor.
Specifically I noticed both Fountain and Miller on the floor together at a pretty critical juncture in the second half - which puzzled me - so I misled with my post apologies.
quote:
But them getting double-digit minutes kind of speaks to what I've said all along. McMahon has a really poor feel for the game.
That's one of my concerns, I think who to play, when and how much - I scratch my head a bunch. I've gone over with you last year the use of Dean and Baker and exclusively subbing them for each other and never playing Fountain and Reed together which I thought at times the matchups called for was a specific one that always confounded me.
quote:
I WILL give him credit. Saturday was the first time he played basically his entire roster.
We did a very good job of getting back on d and transition D, while we are giving credit I'll credit our coach there.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 10:30 am to Lapaz
quote:
That’s where Reed would help tremendously. When they had him, they had more options for 2 pointers, and as the defense crashed down to help with Reed, it also created more open 3 pointers. Couple that with not having a true PG that can break down a defense, and it leaves you with limited 2 point options. Sears can break down a defense, but he is pressing in that role, and so he makes too many turnovers. Williams can do it too, but no one respects his shooting this year, so he also has a hard time at the point. Givens is worse than both.
Sounds good in theory...until you realize that's not what was happening in practice.
In the games in which Reed played LSU averaged 25 three point attempts per game...which is the same number they are taking now. In those games they were averaging 31% shooting which, again, is what they are averaging now.
It further illustrates this fan fiction that Reed's loss was an impediment that totally derailed the season. That's not to say Reed's loss wasn't impactful. It was. But not to the degree the constant excuse makers want to make it out to be. McMahon said several times at the beginning of the season he thought this team was a better 3 point shooting team than they were showing. Maybe that's what it looked like in practice. In fact, I suspect V. Miller and R. Miller were making a lot of three pointers in practice. But that wasn't showing up in the games. At some point you have to accept your team's strengths and weaknesses. Since the insertion of Chest and a greater role for Collins you could see one of this teams strengths was offense rebounding. Another is FT shooting (LSU is 38th in the country in FT%---#2 in the SEC).
That should signal maybe the best offense approach is simply getting the ball to the rim where 4 things can occur...3 of which are likely favorable for you: (1) made basket, (2) foul shots, (3) offensive rebound (4) missed shot. Having a poor 3 point shooting team take way too many, and often contested, 3 point shots is not good offense. That's playing exactly into the defense's hands.
Some of the best offensive teams under Wade couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat from three. But they recognized that and also that they were great offensive rebounding teams and good FT shooting teams. So they didn't take a ton of threes.
Every roster is different. The good coaches figure out the strengths of their teams and play to them. Bad coaches try to force guys to play a certain way even if that is a weakness of the players.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 10:30 am to Alt26
quote:
Out of curiosity I went back and looked at the box score. It doesn't appear he ever had that exact line up on the floor. However, in every line up where Givens was on instead of Sears LSU had a negative point differential. The total point differential with Givens on the floor was -17 (LSU). With Sears on the floor it was +10 (LSU). Certainly that is not all on Givens. LSU was -15
with Cam on the floor too. But I think it does call into question some of the logic (if there is any) of both starting Givens and playing him nearly 11:00 in a game that he's probably not ready for (road game at #4 team in the country). For a team that struggles offensively it doesn't make a ton of sense to put your second leading scorer on the bench to start the game.
Same for R. Miller. LSU was in the game because of their physicality. That's simply not Miller's game (which was the EXACT scouting report on him as a prospect). Miller played 13:00. With him in the game LSU had only 10 rebounds. With him off LSU had 33. Hell, LSU had 11 rebounds with Green on the floor who only played 9:00 minutes.
NONE of that is to say Givens and Miller should never get playing time. They have to play to develop. But them getting double-digit minutes kind of speaks to what I've said all along. McMahon has a really poor feel for the game. That's where an HC can really make a difference. Every HC knows basic, and complex, "sets". They know the X's and O's. It's the guys though who can feel the flow of the game and make the constant slight adjustments on the fly who usually have success. Subbing a guy in who is a better matchup. Leaving a guy who is hot or impacting the game in a little longer than initially planned. Changing the tempo a bit. Extending the defense or just throwing in a change on defense out of a TO. Those are the ways coaches subtlety "steal" 10-12 points a game.
I think McMahon develops a game plan and his hesitant to deviate from it unless forced (foul trouble, injury, etc), even if the flow of the game is suggesting he should. However, I WILL give him credit. Saturday was the first time he played basically his entire roster. Some probably played a bit too much, but he didn't leave potential options on the bench. I don't think it's a coincidence LSU was more competitive in a game that looked like a expected blowout going into it.
His options are limited. Green was not quite ready for extended minutes. V. Miller is hurt. Fountain and Williams haven't been good most of the season either, but I would definitely prefer to see Williams and Fountain, over Givens and Miller, but they aren't drastically better. He has been playing the best players he has. If Ward and Reed were available, Miller probably would get no more than 5 minutes per game, and possibly even get a redshirt, while I think Ward would get most of Givens' minutes. CMM's best options were Carter, Sears, Bailey, Collins, and Chest. It appears he'll now have Green, and hopefully V. Miller again for Auburn. Wth what I saw of Green, he's a big upgrade over either Fountain or R. Miller, and with what V. Miller has shown previously, he should become a big upgrade over Givens. I know people will say that they don't play the same position, since Givens comes in for Sears, but I would spell Sears with Williams, and keep Givens on the bench much longer. At worst I would allow Williams and Givens to split the time, since Williams offers slightly more.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 10:49 am to Alt26
quote:
Sounds good in theory...until you realize that's not what was happening in practice.
In the games in which Reed played LSU averaged 25 three point attempts per game...which is the same number they are taking now. In those games they were averaging 31% shooting which, again, is what they are averaging now.
It further illustrates this fan fiction that Reed's loss was an impediment that totally derailed the season. That's not to say Reed's loss wasn't impactful. It was. But not to the degree the constant excuse makers want to make it out to be. McMahon said several times at the beginning of the season he thought this team was a better 3 point shooting team than they were showing. Maybe that's what it looked like in practice. In fact, I suspect V. Miller and R. Miller were making a lot of three pointers in practice. But that wasn't showing up in the games. At some point you have to accept your team's strengths and weaknesses. Since the insertion of Chest and a greater role for Collins you could see one of this teams strengths was offense rebounding. Another is FT shooting (LSU is 38th in the country in FT%---#2 in the SEC).
That should signal maybe the best offense approach is simply getting the ball to the rim where 4 things can occur...3 of which are likely favorable for you: (1) made basket, (2) foul shots, (3) offensive rebound (4) missed shot. Having a poor 3 point shooting team take way too many, and often contested, 3 point shots is not good offense. That's playing exactly into the defense's hands.
Some of the best offensive teams under Wade couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat from three. But they recognized that and also that they were great offensive rebounding teams and good FT shooting teams. So they didn't take a ton of threes.
Every roster is different. The good coaches figure out the strengths of their teams and play to them. Bad coaches try to force guys to play a certain way even if that is a weakness of the players.
Unfortunately, while Chest is awesome, he shoots barely over 50% at the FT line (52.6%), so that lowers the value of one of those choices. He's easily the worst FT shooter on the team. Also, you have to have a good PG that can break down the defense to get it to Chest and Collins in a good position for them to score, since they don't have Reed's offensive skills. While the team's 3 points percentage is hovering around 30%, 3 of their 4 worst 3 point game percentages happened over the last 4 games. A player like Reed would've given them some higher quality shots than either Collins or Chest. Collins and Chest typically get theirs from put backs and other breakdowns. Collins and Chest are better than Reed in other things, but when the team is struggling from 3 point range, a player like Reed helps the team more. Also, Reed is a good 3 point shooter, which can force other team's bigs to cover him, and that clears space for others to get good 2 point shots.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 11:06 am to mcspufftiger7
Betcha we aren't younger than Wade's first SEC Champion.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 11:25 am to Alt26
quote:
That should signal maybe the best offense approach is simply getting the ball to the rim where 4 things can occur...3 of which are likely favorable for you: (1) made basket, (2) foul shots, (3) offensive rebound (4) missed shot.
I think pushing it and early offense is another approach as our half court offense is very poor for whatever reasons you want to say that's a fact.
One way might be do some pressing or trapping defensively to try to force turnovers and get out on some breaks. Guys like Chest, Collins and Green with the length, athleticism and motors could be effective in this type of defense I think.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 11:29 am to mcspufftiger7
Email Joe Lunardi. With this info he will most definitely move LSU to the
Next Next Next Next 4 Teams Out
Next Next Next Next 4 Teams Out
Posted on 1/27/25 at 11:31 am to Lapaz
quote:
Unfortunately, while Chest is awesome, he shoots barely over 50% at the FT line (52.6%), so that lowers the value of one of those choices. He's easily the worst FT shooter on the team.
The fouls would more likely occur on the drivers, not the offense rebounders. Chest, Sears, Miller, Williams, even Givens. all shoot 74% or better. Carter is shooting 91%, Sears is 89%. V. Miller shoots 80%. Even Mike Williams (in very limited attempts -- 10) is shooting 90%. Despite those really good numbers, Carter and Sears are only averaging 4 FT attempts per game. When you look at some of the leading scorers in the league you see a lot of those guys getting to the FT line often. Sears (Alabama) is averaging 7 FTA per game. Moore (Oklahoma) is averaging 5. Edwards (Vandy) is averaging 6 per game. Carter and Sears (LSU) are two of the top 5 FT shooters in the SEC. They should be living at the FT line. That will compensate for poor outside shooting.
quote:
A player like Reed would've given them some higher quality shots than either Collins or Chest.
Guess what? You don't have Reed and he's not coming back this season. So rather than whine and cry about "what if" and how "dynamic" the offense would have been with him in (it wouldn't) ADJUST to what you do have. Your two biggest strengths offensively are rebounding and FT shooting. You have two of the top 5 FT shooters in league as well as two of the top 10 offensive rebounders in the league. You're the worst three point shooting team in the league (literally 16/16 in 3 point FG%) GET TO THE RIM!
In 6 SEC games this year LSU has shot more FTs than their opponent on only 1 occasion. In fact, they significantly outshot their opponent in that game. It's also the game in which they had their highest point total in SEC play. Care to take a guess at what game that was?
I'll save you the suspense....it was Arkansas! Which, "coincidentally" is LSU's only SEC win to date.
In conference games LSU is Number 1 in FT% (84%). Yet, they are second to last in FT attempts. How is that not SCREAMING off the stat sheet as to what the offensive approach should be?
This post was edited on 1/27/25 at 11:44 am
Posted on 1/27/25 at 11:40 am to Alt26
quote:
Guess what? You don't have Reed and he's not coming back this season. So rather than whine and cry about "what if" and how "dynamic" the offense would have been with him in (it wouldn't) ADJUST to what you do have. Your two biggest strengths offensively are rebounding and FT shooting. You have two of the top 5 FT shooters in league as well as two of the top 10 offensive rebounders in the league. You're the worst three point shooting team in the league (literally 16/16 in 3 point FG%) GET TO THE RIM!
I'm not whining. I was pointing out that there is legitimacy to the impact of Reed's loss that some discount, given our problems at the 3 point line, and excess reliance on it. I agree that we should be driving more, but we have to have outlets when the shot isn't available. Too often Carter and Sears drive and get in trouble. We need to have an option other than shooting on every drive. Maybe they can get that fixed. I think our best bet is to try to reproduce the approach we took with Alabama, with a slight adjustment of more drives, and then hope that our shooting improves closer to our average.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 12:11 pm to Lapaz
quote:
I was pointing out that there is legitimacy to the impact of Reed's loss that some discount, given our problems at the 3 point line, and excess reliance on it
But there really isn't. They were attempting the same amount of 3's with Reed in the lineup as they are now and shooting them at the same poor % as they are now. There is no reason to think that approach would have changed even if Reed were still in the lineup. Despite claims that he was a good 3 point shooter LSU wasn't making that apart of their approach. Reed had taken only 4 three point attempts in the seven games he played. If McMahon had aspirations of him being this year's KJ Williams or Baker then he wasn't showing it because Reed wasn't taking threes. I think McMahon felt early R. Miller could be that guy. And that was probably because he looked good shooting in practice. But it wasn't translating into games. Same for V. Miller (who was otherwise playing well).
THAT is why my single biggest complaint about McMahon is he hasn't been good at reading his roster or adapting to their strengths. It's the same approach regardless of who is in. If you are going to ask guys who are weak at doing certain things to somehow be good at it...then don't be shocked when they struggle.
This team is playing decent defense. They have some explosive athletes. What is killing them is the shitty offensive approach. It's why they are leading the SEC in turnovers. It's why they are last in 3 point shooting. You're asking players to (collectively) do something they aren't capable of doing well instead of tailoring the approach to what they do well.
Going forward LSU's goals for each game should be relatively simple:
1. Continue to play decent defense
2. Make more FTs than your opponent attempts
3. Dominate the offensive glass
Much to the chagrin of some fans, that might make things look a little more "streetballish" because you would see a lot more straight-line attacks to the rim. But when you don't move the ball well without turning it over anyway and you can't get great looks from 3 why not change the approach to fit what you might do well?
Posted on 1/27/25 at 12:26 pm to Alt26
It’s a perfect scenario argument. Reed isn’t a player who commands double teams. He may pull some attention to him if he’s going good but that’s nowhere near a guarantee so this idea that he collapses defenses is just no a real point outside of the rare occurrence. We have to take bad shots because our offense schematically doesn’t create open looks plus we’re very bad with our reads and timing off the ball screen and have been every year under McMahon.
Posted on 1/27/25 at 12:40 pm to Madking
quote:
We have to take bad shots because our offense schematically doesn’t create open looks plus we’re very bad with our reads and timing off the ball screen and have been every year under McMahon.
I think execution is more the issue than scheme. Not reading ball screens well as you point out is one reason. Poor screens another. Lake of crisp and decisive movement without the ball another. Fighting for good positioning another. Proper spacing another.
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