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re: Les is the best coach that LSU has ever had
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:02 pm to Scoob
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:02 pm to Scoob
quote:It's amazing to me how people can miss the fact that both of Saban's National Championship seasons were followed by 4 game dropoffs the next year (13-1 to 9-3, 14-0 to 10-3). Even his 2001 SEC Championship team was followed up by a 2 game dropoff and his worst season ever at LSU (10-3 to 8-5).
it seemed like the fire was gone and things were sliding.
Saban is clearly a great coach, and -- as I've mentioned before -- apparently the best in the business at building championship programs. But he and his teams seem to struggle tremendously with complacency (like most people and teams do, though perhaps slightly worse than most). He's never stuck around anywhere long enough to take a second crack to overcome the complacency the year after the year after a championship, so we will see this season whether he has any better success at that. What we do know -- Saban has never fielded a top 10 team at a program where he has previously won a National Championship. Miles has. Until that changes, it's just one more reason I'm happy with the guy we've got.
0
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:04 pm to Topwater Trout
99-39 since 2000, 4 conference titles 3 BCS bowls...
This post was edited on 2/14/11 at 4:05 pm
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:05 pm to Chimlim
quote:
Chimlim
Thank you! Finally someone on here made a logical arguement.
Still don't agree with you but
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:06 pm to tduecen
quote:
99-39 since 2000, 4 conference titles 3 BCS bowls...
Oregon?
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:09 pm to Topwater Trout
Yes.... 1 of conference titles was a tie with Washington/Oregon State
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:10 pm to Topwater Trout
quote:Huh, that's weird; I could have sworn we just had a National Championship Game featuring two teams who had never been in a National Championship Game before, one of whom had NEVER won a National Championship and the other not having won one in over 50 years.
So how come we don't see teams come out of nowhere to compete for national titles? Why is it always the same group of teams year in year out compteting for the title?
Florida had never been a championship level program until Spurrier came along in '90; six years later they were National Champions; six years later, Spurrier left Florida without winning another one. LaVell Edwards built BYU into a National Championship team, and they've never won another one.
How about you answer a question: if it's easier to maintain than build, how come Saban has come within 4 games of his National Championship teams' performances the following season?
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:13 pm to Tyger1919
quote:
Why does it make a coach a bad guy if he leaves a team.
Doesn't make him "a bad guy".
It makes the guy who is offered, but says no when he is asked to leave a more loyal guy to your program guy.
People normally value/respect loyalty , but with the flack dished out to the likes of Miles or JL...some place little or no value in it.
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:14 pm to cj2002
quote:I'm really curious what exactly about our 9-3 2004 team (or even his 10-3 2010 Bama team) makes you believe that he would won 3 more titles when he couldn't even break 10 wins with National Championship caliber programs he himself had super-stocked with talent? If he couldn't do it then, when it is so much "easier to maintain", what makes you think he would have ever done it again? Did you really see anything like the fire he had in 2000-2003 when he was on the sidelines for that 2004 season? I certainly did not see anywhere near the level of coaching that took us to 13-1, and it showed in the 9-3 result.
Had he stayed I say we would have 3 NC since 03.
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:16 pm to King Joey
quote:Some reason I have a feeling this has been the central point as to why Saban would not have won another title at LSU...
I'm really curious what exactly about our 9-3 2004 team
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:18 pm to King Joey
quote:
Huh, that's weird; I could have sworn we just had a National Championship Game featuring two teams who had never been in a National Championship Game before, one of whom had NEVER won a National Championship and the other not having won one in over 50 years.
Auburn isn't a good program? They also had the best first year player to ever play in CFB.
Oregon has been good for over 10 years....like i said before they sniffed the BCSCG in 07
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:20 pm to Topwater Trout
in 04 Auburn should have played... they were undefeated
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:21 pm to tduecen
quote:No, the central point is that he has never done it anywhere, even once. Plain and simple he has zero track record of success after 5 years at a program. He CANNOT be said to have a proven ability to maintain because his entire history of "maintaining" consists of two seasons -- one each following his championship seasons at the two schools -- and both of those seasons featured 4-game dropoffs from the previous season and a tumble out of the top 10. With a consistent record of that kind of decline in just one year in the role of maintaining an elite program, and absolutely zero evidence of any successful performance in a sustaining role, it does beg the question of why so many people with absolutely zero data on the matter would automatically assume a level of success than no more than 3 or 4 coaches in the history of college football have achieved?
Some reason I have a feeling this has been the central point as to why Saban would not have won another title at LSU...
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:29 pm to King Joey
quote:3 straight 10 win seasons at Alabama is longer than 2 seasons....
He CANNOT be said to have a proven ability to maintain because his entire history of "maintaining" consists of two seasons
quote:LSU rotated and played 3 quarterbacks in 04... lost 3 games to teams that finished in the Top 10, had one bad blowout (UGA) but was screwed against Auburn and blown assignment against Iowa. Also one less game than the 13 teams play today. Also I a similar situation Les went from 12-2 to 8-5 and then managed to rebound... Nick Followed a 14-0 season with a 10-3 campaign at Alabama....
and both of those seasons featured 4-game dropoffs from the previous season and a tumble out of the top 10
The argument is weak at best... I've made my feelings on situation in the first 5 pages. I've read past few pages and continue to see that argument and it is weak at best. Sure Nick is no longer coach and it is speculation on what he could have done, just as much as it is speculation he would not have continued to maintain success of LSU had he remained and rebounded from his 9-3 season. The fact remains he had LSU heading in the right direction after Dinardo left.
This post was edited on 2/14/11 at 4:34 pm
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:30 pm to Topwater Trout
quote:What's "good program" got to do with it? LSU was a "good program" when Saban got here (three bowl wins and a 10-2 season in the previous 5 years). We're talking about what Saban built at LSU, which is an elite, championship level program. Auburn was 5-7 three years ago before Chizik took over; if that's "sustaining" to you then, yeah, it is a LOT easier to "sustain" that than to build a National Champion.
Auburn isn't a good program?
quote:And where were they before that? Bellotti was 20-17 from 2002-2004. And those were the seasons where he was "sustaining" from arguably his best team, the 11-1 2001 squad that won the Fiesta Bowl. And they were 7-6 the very next year. Why? Because sustaining is REALLY fricking hard.
Oregon has been good for over 10 years....like i said before they sniffed the BCSCG in 07
Btw, in any sense in which Oregon has been "good" for over 10 years, LSU has been ELITE under Miles.
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:36 pm to King Joey
quote:Some individuals who border on genius, get bored with any previous accomplishment. They have to be moving on, after the thrill is gone.
he has zero track record of success after 5 years at a program.
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:37 pm to tduecen
quote:10-3 and out of the top 10 is not "maintaining" at the level being discussed.
3 straight 10 win seasons at Alabama is longer than 2 seasons..
quote:All by a program in its fifth year of construction under Saban, a job he had managed to do well enough to win the National Championship, but not well enough to sustain. Which is why that seasons works as evidence for my point that sustaining is harder than building. At the very least, history unequivocally demonstrates that it is much more rare.
LSU rotated and played 3 quarterbacks in 04... lost 3 games to teams that finished in the Top 10 . . .
quote:Yes, he did.
Also I a similar situation Les went from 12-2 to 8-5 and then managed to rebound
quote:Exactly. Whether or not he could have returned LSU to National Championship level, or even the top 10, is a matter of speculation. Just as is whether or not Miles can return LSU to National Championship level after winning his National Championship. What is not a matter of speculation is whether Miles can return LSU to the top 10 level after winning a National Championship. That is settled. It remains to be seen (perhaps, if he stays anywhere long enough) whether Saban can settle the issue of his ability to return a program to top 10 level, or even National Championship level.
Sure Nick is no longer coach and it is speculation on what he could have done, just as much as it is speculation he would not have continued to maintain success of LSU had he remained
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:43 pm to Mayhawman
quote:That is absolutely true, and not just of genius. Many of the most successful types in many walks of life thrive on challenges. From coaching, to business, to dating, to hunting, to video games, etc. Once they have "mastered" a particular challenge, they have difficulty engaging their full focus on what they feel is already "done". And so they move on to experience (often) great success at new and different challenges. Such are the people you want on your side when an enormous change is desired. Not so much when the task required is simply, "keep doing that over and over and over and over . . . ."
Some individuals who border on genius, get bored with any previous accomplishment. They have to be moving on, after the thrill is gone
Sustaining the level of excellence Saban built at LSU (and now at Bama) is a herculean task that few coaches in history have ever measured up to. Miles has yet to meet that challenge, and neither has Saban. But Miles has at least attempted it, and with this past season he has shown at least a hint that he might be up to that challenge. We shall see, and I for one couldn't be happier about it.
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:47 pm to King Joey
quote:Being ranked in the Top 10 and finished 11 (10 in AP) is being a bit picky... That shows me he has them headed in the proper direction...
10-3 and out of the top 10 is not "maintaining" at the level being discussed.
quote:5th year vs 4th year... again splitting hairs to fulfill your argument in the thread... As stated both coaches had a similar situation and both faltered during their time at LSU after winning a NC because of no returning QB.
All by a program in its fifth year of construction under Saban, a job he had managed to do well enough to win the National Championship, but not well enough to sustain
quote:Basically this is what ya'll have turned this thread... turned it into speculation since neither side can offer any proof towards their point, it is an opinion of that matter.
Exactly. Whether or not he could have returned LSU to National Championship level, or even the top 10, is a matter of speculation. Just as is whether or not Miles can return LSU to National Championship level after winning his National Championship. What is not a matter of speculation is whether Miles can return LSU to the top 10 level after winning a National Championship. That is settled. It remains to be seen (perhaps, if he stays anywhere long enough) whether Saban can settle the issue of his ability to return a program to top 10 level, or even National Championship level.
If people feel Nick is better after taking over for Dinardo then fine
If people feel Les is better for producing 4 Top 10 season in 6 then fine
Hallman killed LSU football, Dinardo put it on life support, Nick was like the heart transplant, and Les has kept it beating strong...
As I said earlier... To me Nick and Les are close, I give Nick the edge because of his 1 extra SEC Title, however, Les is still coaching at LSU and can pass Nick with another SEC Title or playing for another national title.
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:49 pm to tduecen
quote:Les had groomed a very likely All-SEC QB, that he kicked off the team in spring practice, leaving a gaping whole in the offense in 2008. Saban had virtually the same team return last year.
a similar situation Les went from 12-2 to 8-5 and then managed to rebound... Nick Followed a 14-0 season with a 10-3 campaign at Alabama....
quote:Don't forget he beat Oregon St in the opener, in a game that rivaled any of Les' as "lucky wins". All American kicker missed how many kicks that game for OSU? Let's just say 2004 didn't leave ME feeling like we were at the start of a dynasty, but rather, that we'd peaked and were gonna be a consistant mid-level bowl team- top 15 maybe, but not anything special. Les put together that 3 yr string which established us as worthy of a mention in every preseason poll (which btw we are being mentioned again). We were written off this year, and finished 11-2 and in the top 10 again.
lost 3 games to teams that finished in the Top 10, had one bad blowout (UGA) but was screwed against Auburn and blown assignment against Iowa
Edit to add- both are excellent coaches, as their records and accomplishments show. I'd say they are driven by different desires- Nick seems to thrive in taking potential powers and maxing them out, in a 5 yr plan. We don't know if he has any real interest in keeping things going, because he hasn't done that yet. Les appears to "have the want" to be Bo Shembechler Jr; which is to say he wants to run a long-standing power, with no desire to start over anywhere else (I think Okie St was his stepping stone).
This post was edited on 2/14/11 at 4:59 pm
Posted on 2/14/11 at 4:56 pm to Scoob
quote:Honestly is that any different that other games we have witnessed? Troy? La Tech? I mean I could continue about the close wins over the course of each coaches career...
Don't forget he beat Oregon St in the opener, in a game that rivaled any of Les' as "lucky wins". All American kicker missed how many kicks that game for OSU? Let's just say 2004 didn't leave ME feeling like we were at the start of a dynasty, but rather, that we'd peaked and were gonna be a consistant mid-level bowl team- top 15 maybe, but not anything special. Les put together that 3 yr string which established us as worthy of a mention in every preseason poll (which btw we are being mentioned again). We were written off this year, and finished 11-2 and in the top 10 again.
quote:RS Freshman in Russell and Randall who no one really wanted as QB... 2002 reminded me more of 08 as Mauck got hurt and ruined a promising season, like RP getting kicked off and ruining a possibly good season (although the Co-DC thing would have still sucked)
Les had groomed a very likely All-SEC QB, that he kicked off the team in spring practice, leaving a gaping whole in the offense in 2008. Saban had virtually the same team return last year.
We can continue to make excuses for each coach if ya'll would like to continue... Thing is I have no issue with Les either... I have no reason to bash him (and I have not) but the anti-saban segment of the fan base is stronger than the anti-les at this point it seems.
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