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Started By
Message
re: Interesting article on NCAA Refs
Posted on 1/7/17 at 2:53 pm to Azkiger
Posted on 1/7/17 at 2:53 pm to Azkiger
quote:
I don't see anything in there that argues how 1.) one bad call or missed call cannot drastically change a football game
I said you would have to look at the "game changing" calls those calls would need to be researched.
quote:
) how the article you linked in your OP covered these statically insignificant instances that do have a large impact.
They don't cover it, but the article does a good job showing how refs are human and have bias. The study i suggested be done would be necessary to show the bama bias.
quote:
My critique was that the article you linked doesn't say what you think it says, I wasn't claiming the contrary
I think it says that officiating can be flawed and refs are humans who have biases (conscious or not). In order to reduce speculation like the one being discussed here the refs should be governed by an independent body so these incestuous relationships between refs and conferences can and should be broken up.
quote:
It's not hard to imagine that at that point in time, before Saban proved himself at Alabama, that LSU was the favorite.
Yep. That's my point in all of this. I wouldn't be surprised, like the article/study was trying to demonstrate, to know that refs could unconsciously give the "favorite" or "better team" the benefit of the doubt on subjective calls. It's also possible, on missed calls, that the refs aren't looking as hard on the favorite team due to the bias discussed in the article.
quote:
You scoffed at the remarks that pointed to refs ignoring 3 holding penalties on Bama's TD this season and pointed to the real problem being LSU's play call, execution, etc
I don't think i scoffed at any call. I agreed several times they were missed calls. I don't think i disputed a bad or missed call with anyone. Also to say it was "ignored" implies they for certain saw all 3 calls and made conscious decision to not call it.
quote:
Poor play call, poor execution, whatever, doesn't justify refs giving a free TD to your opponents. That one play accounted for 70% of the points scored that game.
Again "giving" them a td makes it seem like they're doing it on purpose, but looking past the verbage, my point in this particular game, was that LSU scored zero points. How many times do you beat a team with zero points?
Instead of blaming the refs and calling them cheaters who are secretly working for Bama, i think it's more productive to look at something that can be fixed...like scoring more than zero points.
That doesn't mean the play doesn't upset me. It means that it isn't proof of any conspiracy like most of the people in this thread seem to believe.
quote:
The conversation isn't whether or not LSU's play calling was good or bad, its about ref bias. Bring up LSU's problems is off topic.
I explained above, but i am saying people will jump to blame refs while somehow forgetting how piss poor our offense was during that whole game. I think it was something like 130 yrds of offense and 5 first downs for lsu and 300 yrds of offense and 15 first downs for Bama. That's the correlation i was making.
This post was edited on 1/7/17 at 2:54 pm
1
Posted on 1/7/17 at 4:26 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
I actually said you could look at just the SEC to begin.
Yes, and when I provided you with a very blatant outlier from a statistical standpoint (Bama going a full SEC season and then some without being called for holding). You then changed the parameters again after that point was proven, and wanted a comparison to the entire NCAA. You are going to move the goalposts every time someone points something out to you.
quote:
You know that the officials on the field make the final calls, and that Shaw isn't and can't watch all those games, right?
I'm very aware how the officiating works, especially in the specific scenario I mentioned with the targeting. All year long, in every game, no matter who was playing, the game was stopped to review this EVEN WHEN IT WASN'T CALLED ON THE FIELD....except for the biggest game of the season in the SECW. That isn't an accident. And don't give me the BS excuse that "they can't watch all the games." The LSU/Bama game is a primetime game that gets a ton of pub. If the boys in Birmingham aren't watching it then this is a major problem.
quote:
If you believe it's all rigged all the way up to the NCAA nothing i would ever say or do would change your mind so we might as well just drop this.
Again, as I've stated for you in the thread pages ago....
I watch CFB no differently than I watch an episode of Seinfeld or Weather Gone Viral. It is entertainment. Part of entertainment is accepting some things that suspend reality. No different than when I would watch wrestling, and someone would come in with a chair in the middle of the match while the ref "wasn't looking" to knock out one of the entertainers. It is all for sport.
quote:
I asked for proof. No one has it. They believe there's a conspiracy theory that no one can prove. If you believe in something without conclusive proof it exists then that's your choice.
Nah. You've been given plenty of proof in a 12 page thread that included pictures, statistical outliers, and many well-written examples.
I think you are either:
A) One of many Bama fans that posts here with an LSU ID or..
B) You are an LSU fan that still hasn't accepted what you are watching and are trying to convince yourself that the duck you see quacking on your TV isn't, in fact, a duck. I personally, know the duck exists, expect the duck to make appearances, and promptly laugh my arse off at the absurdity of it all because I know true believers out there will deny it.
I'm going to go with A on my analysis of you!
Either way, this has been a great time burner for me when I'm bored. I'm going watch the NFL playoffs where I already expect some shenanigans tonight when I watch the Seahawks play at home. And guess what, despite the fact that I know SEA will most likely have some strange BS go their way, I'm rooting for them to win. Why? Because it entertains me.
Posted on 1/7/17 at 4:47 pm to EZE Tiger Fan
quote:
Yes, and when I provided you with a very blatant outlier from a statistical standpoint (Bama going a full SEC season and then some without being called for holding). You then changed the parameters again after that point was proven, and wanted a comparison to the entire NCAA. You are going to move the goalposts every time someone points something out to you.
No im not. I asked you to show me the outlier against the average. I also asked how many missed holding calls there actually were you don't have those answers. What point did you prove? You pointed to a no holding streak for Bama with absolutely nothing to compare it against. So what does that prove?
quote:
All year long, in every game, no matter who was playing, the game was stopped to review this EVEN WHEN IT WASN'T CALLED ON THE FIELD....except for the biggest game of the season in the SECW
You mean all the games you watched right? So again we're going back to your memories from months ago on a small subset of games because i highly doubt you watched every single play of every sec game.
quote:
No different than when I would watch wrestling, and someone would come in with a chair in the middle of the match while the ref "wasn't looking" to knock out one of the entertainers. It is all for sport.
Then why even bother with this thread? You think all football is fixed liked wrestling. I mean if that's the theory you believe more power to you, but don't claim it's a fact and proven because it has not been proven as fact. Your "own eyes" don't qualify as proof. Sorry.
quote:
Nah. You've been given plenty of proof in a 12 page thread that included pictures, statistical outliers, and many well-written examples.
Im sorry you haven't read or just willfully ignored my posts earlier. You provided cases of bad/missed calls. You did not however provide proof of cheating by the refs. I am sorry if you don't understand the difference between fan theory and an actual study.
quote:
I think you are either:
A) One of many Bama fans that posts here with an LSU ID or..
B) You are an LSU fan that still hasn't accepted what you are watching and are trying to convince yourself that the duck you see quacking on your TV isn't, in fact, a duck. I personally, know the duck exists, expect the duck to make appearances, and promptly laugh my arse off at the absurdity of it all because I know true believers out there will deny it.
I'm going to go with A on my analysis of you!
I love how people choose to claim i am a bama fan because i dont believe in conspiracy theories. It's sad that people can't have different points of views and still be fans of the same team. When you find anywhere that i talked about loving Bama please let me know.
quote:
Either way, this has been a great time burner for me when I'm bored. I'm going watch the NFL playoffs where I already expect some shenanigans tonight when I watch the Seahawks play at home. And guess what, despite the fact that I know SEA will most likely have some strange BS go their way, I'm rooting for them to win. Why? Because it entertains me.
since you've got it all figured out and "proved" all your points you should really take the "proof" to the press/ncaa/university. I bet they would want to publish all this astounding proof and research you have compiled with "your own eyes" over all these years. I mean...that's what we're calling "proof" now, right?
Posted on 1/7/17 at 7:40 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
Again "giving" them a td makes it seem like they're doing it on purpose
That does seem like the most likely scenario when you have trained professionals miss three, count'em three, holding penalties happening simultaneously during the same TD play.
It's akin to having a baby sitter not see three children leave a room when they were staring at the door the entire time.
It's so egregious you start to think the best explanation was that it was done on purpose.
Posted on 1/7/17 at 7:55 pm to Azkiger
quote:
That does seem like the most likely scenario when you have trained professionals miss three, count'em three, holding penalties happening simultaneously during the same TD play
It happens to all teams. Happened to us this year too against ole miss and i never once heard someone say the refs cheated to give LF7 that touchdown.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 7:59 am to Tiger Tracker
quote:
It happens to all teams. Happened to us this year too against ole miss and i never once heard someone say the refs cheated to give LF7 that touchdown.
Can you link the play?
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:05 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Can you link the play?
page 9 of this thread there are two pics of the holding. Someone had a gif of it, but i don't have that.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:58 pm to Azkiger
quote:How do you feel about this? Refs must have missed it on purpose too?
It's so egregious you start to think the best explanation was that it was done on purpose.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:46 pm to lsupride87
While obviously a bad call, its not as bad as what occurred with the Alabama hold.
- It's two holding penalties (that I can see) not 3.
- The teams are much more cluttered around the penalties that are occuring, whereas Bama's was surrounding the pocket (pretty much out in the open).
- The two holding penalties were within 3 yards of eachother and not spread all over the pocket.
- The two holding penalties were from the same angle that, when combined with how close they were in relation to eachother and the clutter around them, leaves the door open for the refs responsible for making that call just having a bad angle on the play.
With Alabama not only was it 3, but they were all over the place and could be seen from different angles. I think its easier to argue that the refs just didn't see this one verses the Bama TD play.
I understand that refs do miss calls, no doubt. But considering how out in the open and spread out their holds were I'm shocked that not one was seen. From the LSU clip, if you missed one I could see how you missed the other considering how close they were to each other, the angle at which the holds were made, and the clutter around them.
- It's two holding penalties (that I can see) not 3.
- The teams are much more cluttered around the penalties that are occuring, whereas Bama's was surrounding the pocket (pretty much out in the open).
- The two holding penalties were within 3 yards of eachother and not spread all over the pocket.
- The two holding penalties were from the same angle that, when combined with how close they were in relation to eachother and the clutter around them, leaves the door open for the refs responsible for making that call just having a bad angle on the play.
With Alabama not only was it 3, but they were all over the place and could be seen from different angles. I think its easier to argue that the refs just didn't see this one verses the Bama TD play.
I understand that refs do miss calls, no doubt. But considering how out in the open and spread out their holds were I'm shocked that not one was seen. From the LSU clip, if you missed one I could see how you missed the other considering how close they were to each other, the angle at which the holds were made, and the clutter around them.
This post was edited on 1/8/17 at 1:49 pm
Posted on 1/8/17 at 2:07 pm to Ponchy Tiger
quote:It's interesting that the fans of all teams always think their team gets the shaft.
Its interesting that one team seems to more times than not be on the beneficial side of these missed calls.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 2:19 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Azkiger
If you're just going to make excuses then let's just drop this whole discussion because you, like most in this thread, can't look at this objectively.
I find it humorous that i get accused of moving the goalposts, but when i bring forth evidence of it happening to LSU I get excuses as to why it made sense for the LSU no call, but the Bama one was most likely cheating.
I am fairly certain that if the game would've ended 7-0 LSU and that holding call went in favor of lsu to win the Bama game then the story would go similar to what you're saying now. That...with a little "it's about time we finally caught a break since the refs always help Bama."
I was reading a thread yesterday about how lsu may have gotten away with one in the ASU 2005 game. I watched the video. It was close, but definitely could've gone either way depending on what the call on the field was. I just laughed reading the comments there (as many of the same people commented here). Those same people who are angrily defending the catch saying it was an "obvious" catch would be the ones on here freaking out about that catch if it would have happened for Bama. Screaming conspiracy! And cheating refs!
It's like i said on page one as a fan memory can be deceiving. I will most certainly remember the calls that fricked over LSU in a close game. I may not remember the calls that helped my team win. That's the whole reason there should be more research on something like this.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 4:08 pm to Tiger Tracker
I can't believe you are still driving this thread. Give it up, you have your opinion and others have theirs.
These calls never happen when the isn't tight. These calls always happen in a game that is a toss up and always at time that benefits Alabama the most and these calls always go Alabama's way. This isn't even up for debate its a clear fact that this has happened in the past. Now it can be debated if its cheating or whatever but the fact that these calls happen are not debatable.
This is correct but it was called correctly as per the rules at the time. If replay would have been involved it could have went either way and likely would have been ruled as it was call on the field and that was a TD. It it would have been ruled Incomplete it would have stayed that way as well. If that happens today, no doubt it is incomplete and LSU loses. All of that being say, it has nothing to do with this on going debate that you will not give up. You are right about fan memory but it doesn't apply to these cases because we can find video evidence to back up our theories.
I will even add this. I am 48 years old and I cannot recall ever recall LSU benefiting from a call against Alabama if the game is still in doubt. I can even recall a game in 2000 in Tiger Stadium where the referees literally tried to give Alabama the ball on a fumble that LSU recovered and it wasn't even close. The LSU player was standing up outside the pile holding the ball. They actually awarded Alabama the ball. If not for the video crew repeatedly replaying it on the video screen in the stadium and the fans going crazy with anger they would have stuck with the call and awarded Alabama the ball inside the LSU 10 yard line. By the way Saban was LSU's coach. This is a Alabama thing and has been going on for years. You can dispute it all you want I don't give a shite. I know what I have seen with my own eyes.
quote:
I am fairly certain that if the game would've ended 7-0 LSU and that holding call went in favor of lsu to win the Bama game then the story would go similar to what you're saying now. That...with a little "it's about time we finally caught a break since the refs always help Bama."
These calls never happen when the isn't tight. These calls always happen in a game that is a toss up and always at time that benefits Alabama the most and these calls always go Alabama's way. This isn't even up for debate its a clear fact that this has happened in the past. Now it can be debated if its cheating or whatever but the fact that these calls happen are not debatable.
quote:
I was reading a thread yesterday about how lsu may have gotten away with one in the ASU 2005 game. I watched the video. It was close, but definitely could've gone either way depending on what the call on the field was.
This is correct but it was called correctly as per the rules at the time. If replay would have been involved it could have went either way and likely would have been ruled as it was call on the field and that was a TD. It it would have been ruled Incomplete it would have stayed that way as well. If that happens today, no doubt it is incomplete and LSU loses. All of that being say, it has nothing to do with this on going debate that you will not give up. You are right about fan memory but it doesn't apply to these cases because we can find video evidence to back up our theories.
I will even add this. I am 48 years old and I cannot recall ever recall LSU benefiting from a call against Alabama if the game is still in doubt. I can even recall a game in 2000 in Tiger Stadium where the referees literally tried to give Alabama the ball on a fumble that LSU recovered and it wasn't even close. The LSU player was standing up outside the pile holding the ball. They actually awarded Alabama the ball. If not for the video crew repeatedly replaying it on the video screen in the stadium and the fans going crazy with anger they would have stuck with the call and awarded Alabama the ball inside the LSU 10 yard line. By the way Saban was LSU's coach. This is a Alabama thing and has been going on for years. You can dispute it all you want I don't give a shite. I know what I have seen with my own eyes.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 4:10 pm to shel311
quote:
It's interesting that the fans of all teams always think their team gets the shaft.
We don't always get the shaft. Things are generally pretty even, unless its against Alabama in the SEC.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 4:55 pm to Ponchy Tiger
quote:
I can't believe you are still driving this thread. Give it up, you have your opinion and others have theirs.
You and others are driving this thread up by responding, bud. I have said several times we have different opinions and said drop it, but somehow you, especially, keep coming back and responding.
quote:
You can dispute it all you want I don't give a shite.
You obviously do by how upset you are with me for even talking about it. I mean you're back here again posting on this thread, right?
quote:
I know what I have seen with my own eyes.
Yes. Me too. It doesn't really mean anything unless you can take the footage and do some analysis with it. By the length of this thread, i can tell most people here don't understand this. Like I said to another poster, since you have all this proof and i am just a blind fool, why not report all this? Why don't you use your "proof" to take down this corrupt machine?
Bottom line is that it's not proof of anything on its own. You've just made up a conclusion that suits your narrative. You didn't prove anything. This is called confirmation bias.
Good luck to you. Hopefully you will stop responding to this thread so it can finally die. Also, age doesnt equate to wisdom or knowledge. Glad you've been a long time Tiger fan, and I've been one myself. Sorry that having an opinion different than yours upsets you so much.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 5:00 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
since you have all this proof and i am just a blind fool, why not report all this? Why don't you use your "proof" to take down this corrupt machine?
who would you have us bring this proof too? The SEC
Posted on 1/8/17 at 5:10 pm to Ponchy Tiger
quote:
These calls never happen when the isn't tight. These calls always happen in a game that is a toss up and always at time that benefits Alabama the most and these calls always go Alabama's way. This isn't even up for debate its a clear fact that this has happened in the past.
You can't even prove this.
I can't believe you're missing my point by so much. You can say that all you want, but don't call it a fact. You don't even know if what you're saying is true because there's not enough research to show it.
Yea it has happened in the past, but to say ALL game changing calls ALWAYS benefit Alabama and it's a FACT is not accurate unless you show me all the game changing calls in all the games Alabama has played in, for starters.
Again, i am sorry you can't seem to understand this, but that's how you prove something. So keep it to your opinion/theory because no one has proven this as fact.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 5:13 pm to Ponchy Tiger
quote:
who would you have us bring this proof too?
NCAA/local newspapers would love to run this story.
You know how much notoriety the person who proved this would get not to mention whoever gets the exclusive scoop.
Also, fixing games is illegal and people can be jailed for it. So the police too, if you like. Just promise me one thing. When you bring them all your proof please video it and post it here. I want to watch their faces as you present all the "facts".
Posted on 1/8/17 at 5:28 pm to Tiger Tracker
LINK
Fixing games isn't illegal unless money exchanges hands. This is being orchestrated by Alabama alums that work in the SEC offices. Just how the bridge schedules were tweaked to benefit Alabama and hurt LSU.
Fixing games isn't illegal unless money exchanges hands. This is being orchestrated by Alabama alums that work in the SEC offices. Just how the bridge schedules were tweaked to benefit Alabama and hurt LSU.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 5:31 pm to Ponchy Tiger
Posted on 1/8/17 at 5:39 pm to Ponchy Tiger
quote:
Fixing games isn't illegal unless money exchanges hands. This is being orchestrated by Alabama alums that work in the SEC offices.
So you're gonna sit here and tell me that the refs (who aren't Alabama alum) are risking their officiating careers to help Alabama and aren't profiting off of it in anyway?
So for the past 17 years (using this since you gave an example all the way back to 2000) all refs involved in the lsu/Alabama game who were hired by the SEC have helped out Alabama out of the goodness of their hearts? Wow. This just keeps getting better. Please enlighten me further. You're entertaining to say the least.
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