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re: If successful, is the O model sustainable?
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:24 am to Salmon
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:24 am to Salmon
quote:
the market right now for a NC winning coach is $6+ mil
No, the market for Urban Myer and Nick Saban is $6+ mill. Just giving a guy who wins a NC a significant raise simply because guys like Myer and Saban are making that is a good way to end up in a Gene Chizik situation. AU bumped him up to $3.5 mill after the 2010 season and extended him to 2015. They fired him 2 years later, but were still were still on the hook for his contract.
The market for Chizik wasn't overwhelming even after he won the NC. It would probably be the same for O even if he won the NC. Plus, if his "dream" is to the be the HC of Louisiana's biggest program, then hold him to it. Make him consider leaving his "dream" job before just throwing a ton of money at him to stay at a place he doesn't want to leave.
Jim Harbaugh is making 9 million because he has options. Meyer and Saban are making $6 million not simply as a reward for being good coaches, but because they have options to go elsewhere if they wanted. Until O PROVES he has serious options to go elsewhere and make $6 million, I wouldn't give him anywhere close to that. Hell, he's significantly overpaid RIGHT NOW. No one else was giving O a non-HC job paying more than 1 - 1.5 million and he was getting a power conf. HC job. The only reason he is being paid 3.5 is because it would look bad if the DC was making more than the HC. Aranda's real market value his higher than O's
2
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:24 am to ThaGenius
quote:
CEO isn't going to ask for 6+ million
He's not dumb enough to ask for Saban money
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:26 am to Salmon
quote:
the market right now for a NC winning coach is $6+ mil if O wins, someone will come calling, that is a given
i don't think that is neccessarily so just for the 4 reasons listed above.
Even with a NC I don't think he is going to be in big demand at other major programs. NOt for top money anyway
This post was edited on 12/19/16 at 11:28 am
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:27 am to boxcar willie
quote:
even in that scenario I don't see him getting paid like the very top HC's get paid. They get paid what they get paid because their is a big market for their services. Saban gets paid 7 mill a year because if Bama doesn't, someone else will. Even with a NC I don't see Orgeron commanding top HC pay. He'll get a pay raise and some bonuses, sure. We hired Orgeron because his skill set was suited for LSU. There was no other demand for him. His skill set and personality fit LSU, not Notre Dame or Ohio St or Washington.
Thank you! A person is only "worth" as much as someone is willing to pay them. If there is a 4, 5, 6 million dollar market for O outside of LSU, then LSU will have to pay market value to keep O. If not, then it would make ZERO sense for LSU to pay above their OWN market value.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:30 am to beauxroux
quote:
While I agree those coaches "run" one side (although they all have coordinators on that side), I don't attribute their success by and large to that fact. There is so much more to being a successful HC. "Running" one side of the ball might account for less than 5%
Ok.
quote:
There are players, recruiting, organizing, boosters relations, PR, administration, compliance, radio shows, TV appearances, camps, satellite camps, high school coaches, parents, game planning, practice schedules, meetings with players, meetings with coaches, meetings with administration, SEC meeting obligations, NCAA obligations, staff hiring and firing, etc. probably 1000s of things
And most of these things counts for even less when you isolate each one by itself.
Furthermore, I think most coaches are more or less equally skilled at these things, because these are things you have to be able to do to get the job in the first place at this level.
So when multiple other factors all equal out and we're talking about what's the difference between a decent team and a NC winning team, it's guess what, the 5% that makes a difference.
Take two teams, LSU and Alabama. Both teams have coaches very well versed in all of those ancillary duties you named, but one has the 5% and the other doesn't. Where does the coach that lacks the 5% make up ground?
This post was edited on 12/19/16 at 11:40 am
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:34 am to olgoi khorkhoi
Damn...you don't even know if it is successful and you already want to know already if it is sustainable.
Damn...I'll have to buy two crystal balls now just to answer this nonsense.
Damn...I'll have to buy two crystal balls now just to answer this nonsense.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:43 am to Goldrush25
quote:
So when multiple other factors all equal out and we're talking about what's the difference between a decent team and a NC winning team, it's guess what, the 5% that makes a difference.
I agree it's 5 percent, but not bc running one side of the ball or the other.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:43 am to Alt26
quote:
Thank you! A person is only "worth" as much as someone is willing to pay them. If there is a 4, 5, 6 million dollar market for O outside of LSU, then LSU will have to pay market value to keep O. If not, then it would make ZERO sense for LSU to pay above their OWN market value.
You aren't seeing the bigger picture. Orgeron is not the last head coach LSU will ever hire. We were willing to pay top dollar this's year and you see how that went. You think this job is going somehow be more appealing if we get the reputation of lowballing our championship coaches? And I'm quite sure the money we'd bring in after a national championship season would more than make up for the relatively small $2 million or so you're whining about.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:46 am to Alt26
quote:
No, the market for Urban Myer and Nick Saban is $6+ mill. Just giving a guy who wins a NC a significant raise simply because guys like Myer and Saban are making that is a good way to end up in a Gene Chizik situation. AU bumped him up to $3.5 mill after the 2010 season and extended him to 2015. They fired him 2 years later, but were still were still on the hook for his contract.
all of this
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:49 am to Hot Carl
Not only that, but can you imagine the uproar if O is NC coach and Alleva let's him walk bc Alleva does not want to pay fair value. LSU would indeed be the laughing stock.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:51 am to Alt26
quote:
Aranda's real market value his higher than O's
The market and their paychecks disagree.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:53 am to beauxroux
quote:
I agree it's 5 percent, but not bc running one side of the ball or the other.
Disagree. I believe the accumulation of human capital adds up. You have a greater quantity of capable coaches, you have an advantage. The HC is included in that group when he has a specialty of running one side of the ball.
People are over the moon with the fact we have two good coordinators. Well Saban has two good coordinators, AND Saban. Again I ask, where do we make up ground?
This post was edited on 12/19/16 at 11:55 am
Posted on 12/19/16 at 11:58 am to olgoi khorkhoi
I think this is the concern that many reasonable LSU fans have. LSU currently has two of the top coordinators on both sides of the ball, but naturally, if they are successful they will get a chance to move on as a head coach somewhere. This model essentially requires LSU to hire an elite coordinator every 2-3 years. It can be done, but it only takes one bad hire for the whole thing to fall apart.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 12:04 pm to Goldrush25
On any given day, a coach can outperform another bc they are "better" at running one side of the ball or the other. Hugh Freeze running offense bested Saban. Sumlin bested Saban. Long term success for either has not been sustained. Why not? It has nothing to do with the 5% attributable to running one side of the ball or the other. Saban is arguably the best college coach ever. It has little to do with superior knowledge of running a defense; but everything to do with his leadership abilities to instill a level of intensity for 60 minutes and a work ethic imparted on his players to obtain perfection in everything they do on the field.
Why did Saban flop in NFL? It had nothing to do with running one side of the ball or the other. Saban's yelling and domineering (bullying) personality was not effective with players making more money than him. He was ineffective in NFL when it came to instilling the perfectionist attitude and playing for 60 minutes.
Why did Saban flop in NFL? It had nothing to do with running one side of the ball or the other. Saban's yelling and domineering (bullying) personality was not effective with players making more money than him. He was ineffective in NFL when it came to instilling the perfectionist attitude and playing for 60 minutes.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 12:13 pm to beauxroux
quote:he didnt and his nfl demise is greatly exaggerated.
Why did Saban flop in NFL?
A saban coached team will always have a good defense because saban is a great defensive coach.
Meyer will always have a productive offense because he is a good offensive coach.
Just like what happened once Kelly left oregon.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 12:23 pm to Rickdaddy4188
quote:
he didnt and his nfl demise is greatly exaggerated.
Saban was 15-17. His teams lost more games than they won. No exaggeration.
ETA: And he quit after 2 years. How do you define flop?
This post was edited on 12/19/16 at 12:54 pm
Posted on 12/19/16 at 12:42 pm to beauxroux
quote:
Saban is arguably the best college coach ever. It has little to do with superior knowledge of running a defense; but everything to do with his leadership abilities to instill a level of intensity for 60 minutes and a work ethic imparted on his players to obtain perfection in everything they do on the field
Intensity, meh. That is overstated.
You state his players are more prepared. You think his players spend that much more time in practice than everyone else, or is he simply working smarter to have his players better prepared in roughly the same amount of time that other coaches have to prepare their players?
I would equate that to having superior knowledge if you can have your players better prepared in the same time frame. He teaches exactly what players need to know, doesn't waste time on stuff that won't help them win. That is due to knowledge accumulated over time.
This post was edited on 12/19/16 at 12:43 pm
Posted on 12/19/16 at 12:43 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
You state his players are more prepared.
Where did I state that?
Posted on 12/19/16 at 12:49 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
Intensity, meh. That is overstated
Listen to Saban. It's not simply intensity, but intensity and focus for the full 60 minutes of the game. Not over-excitement and loss of focus, but doing your job to perfection each and every second of the game.
Posted on 12/19/16 at 12:50 pm to ThaGenius
Lol if the man wins games you better know LSU will pay him for it. Would deserve it but he needs to win some games first and lots of them. GT good things coming glad we now having these conversations then the crazy ones 2 weeks ago. That was just nuts
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