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Started By
Message
re: 12 men on the field.. hold on a minute...
Posted on 11/24/09 at 10:06 am to Come2Conquer
Posted on 11/24/09 at 10:06 am to Come2Conquer
I'm positive, that is the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation.
1
Posted on 11/24/09 at 10:07 am to duboisd
quote:
I'm positive, that is the difference between illegal substitution and illegal participation.
Explain it to me then. I'm just asking. On the defensive side of the ball, not the offensive side.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 10:09 am to Come2Conquer
I am a referee for high school and NCAA DIII, and although I would be justified in letting the play run, it would reflect poorly on me for not catching it earlier. If there are 12 men on the defense and the ball is about to be snapped, the play should be killed, and the defense flagged for illegal substitution.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 10:13 am to duboisd
quote:
I am a referee for high school and NCAA DIII, and although I would be justified in letting the play run, it would reflect poorly on me for not catching it earlier. If there are 12 men on the defense and the ball is about to be snapped, the play should be killed, and the defense flagged for illegal substitution.
Fair enough; sounds logical. But, just to try it out, would you do the same if one of the 12 were hauling arse to the sideline? I'm just trying to understand why or why not this type of situation is discretionary or fixed.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 10:20 am to duboisd
quote:
JJ kept looking back to the sideline trying to figure out what they wanted him to do.
So, Miles wasn't motioning to spike the ball? Isn't Miles taking heat for denying that he called a spike when video shows that he did?
Posted on 11/24/09 at 10:22 am to Ignatius J. Reilly
quote:The video is subject to interpretation. Its far from clear what he was saying or doing. That in itself says something, I think, but the video isn't a smoking gun.
when video shows that he did?
Posted on 11/24/09 at 10:57 am to Come2Conquer
quote:
But, just to try it out, would you do the same if one of the 12 were hauling arse to the sideline? I'm just trying to understand why or why not this type of situation is discretionary or fixed.
Depends on where he is at the snap. If he's haulin' arse at the 9 yd mark, it's a flag. If he's a foot from the sidelines, let it go.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 11:48 am to arrakis
quote:
The video is subject to interpretation. Its far from clear what he was saying or doing. That in itself says something, I think, but the video isn't a smoking gun.
Yet the video is being used as proof-positive to crucify Miles as a liar for suggesting that he didn't call for a spike. That's the point I've been trying to make in my posts to this thread: Miles is getting criticized for every little detail even though some of those criticisms conflict with others. Not sayin he is blameless; just sayin.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 11:50 am to Come2Conquer
quote:
The problem is that the "last snap" didn't occur. The ball was set & time expired before the snap occurred. Ole Miss could've had 24 people on the field and it wouldn't have mattered.
the last play was on the stat sheets the last play did count, they could have called 12 men now the question did ole miss have 12 men on the feild
Posted on 11/24/09 at 11:55 am to duboisd
quote:
Just to clarify, 12 men on the defense can and should be called prior to the snap for a 5-yd substitution infraction. If the officials let the play go, and then flag it it turns into a 15-yd illegal participation penalty. However, I don't blame them for not calling it in this situation. The last thing an official wants to do is to be involved in the outcome of the game.
I'm not an official, but I played High School ball, and have been watching football for 20+ years now.
I have NEVER seen it called on the defense pre-snap, and have NEVER seen it marked off at more than 5 yards.
The defender has until the ball is snapped to get off the field.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 11:56 am to choupiquesushi
quote:
isn't that a penalty nowadays whether LSU snaps the ball or NOT...
No. It doesn't matter because only eleven guys were on the field for Ole Miss. This is just an excuse by Miles to try to cover up his bad coaching and his throwing Jefferson under the bus for his coaching error.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 11:59 am to arrakis
quote:
Depends on where he is at the snap. If he's haulin' arse at the 9 yd mark, it's a flag. If he's a foot from the sidelines, let it go.
So it is a discretionary call then, right?
Posted on 11/24/09 at 12:16 pm to Come2Conquer
Yes, some common sense needs to be used. It's just like offsides on the kicking team. If he kicks it down to the goalline and someone has a toe over the line you let it go. If they are kicking an onside kick, you flag it.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 12:18 pm to duboisd
quote:
Yes, some common sense needs to be used. It's just like offsides on the kicking team. If he kicks it down to the goalline and someone has a toe over the line you let it go. If they are kicking an onside kick, you flag it.
Cool, thanks to both of you for the explanations.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 12:20 pm to Come2Conquer
no problem
Posted on 11/24/09 at 12:23 pm to Come2Conquer
quote:
So it is a discretionary call then, right?
Discretionary in the context of not calling ticky tack overly technical fouls that have no impact on the play. Just because a foul can be called doesn't mean it should.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 12:27 pm to arrakis
quote:
ust because a foul can be called doesn't mean it should.
Is this across-the-board? If an offense is set, for argument's sake, and the left tackle comes off the line a couple of steps before the snap, is there a scenario where that shouldn't be called?
If you're getting at the fact that refs are human, I do agree. I'm just wondering if the latitude is across the board or it's on a sliding scale versus the actual infraction.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 12:30 pm to Ignatius J. Reilly
quote:
Then all of this discussion about the stupidity of trying to spike the ball and whether Miles made that call is moot. Even if the kicking team had been run on the field and lined up before the ball was set, they couldn't have snapped the ball before time expired either.
I have said this all along..
The screw up was not running the ball once in FG position and not calling the time out earlier on 3rd down..
\No way you would have gotten the FG team on field and snapped the ball in one second.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 12:44 pm to Big Fat
ESPNU just said they had 12 on the field and that LSU assistant coaches in the booth screwed up too.
Posted on 11/24/09 at 12:46 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Miles advised yesterday that in his review of the game film that the 12 man penalty was not warranted in his view.
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