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Message

What, exactly, is required to initiate an NCAA investigation
Posted on 1/19/09 at 11:21 pm
Posted on 1/19/09 at 11:21 pm
..into recruiting violations.
It seems we often hear about "shady" goings-on, and often hear about "the NCAA snooping around" (which I personally believe to be complete horseshite), but it doesn't seem like there are very many investigations...or at least it doesn't seem like there is often punishment dolled out.
The reason I'm asking is the Dexter Pratt situation.
I'm not saying anything shady went on, but many believe the circumstances to be such that something shady HAD to have been going on. Not that they're right, but what has to happen for the NCAA to initiate a formal investigation into a school's recruiting tactics...or more specifically, a certain incident?
Do they have to have "sworn testimony" (not that dramatic, but you know what I mean) from verified, independent sources? Do they follow every "lead"?
Another question: When they are investigating a school, do they make it public that they're doing so?
Anyway, I'm not saying OkSt did anything wrong. All the conjecture just got me thinking about the process.
If you know the answers, please endulge me. If you don't, please refrain and try to enjoy the answers from those who know so that we can all be more informed.
It seems we often hear about "shady" goings-on, and often hear about "the NCAA snooping around" (which I personally believe to be complete horseshite), but it doesn't seem like there are very many investigations...or at least it doesn't seem like there is often punishment dolled out.
The reason I'm asking is the Dexter Pratt situation.
I'm not saying anything shady went on, but many believe the circumstances to be such that something shady HAD to have been going on. Not that they're right, but what has to happen for the NCAA to initiate a formal investigation into a school's recruiting tactics...or more specifically, a certain incident?
Do they have to have "sworn testimony" (not that dramatic, but you know what I mean) from verified, independent sources? Do they follow every "lead"?
Another question: When they are investigating a school, do they make it public that they're doing so?
Anyway, I'm not saying OkSt did anything wrong. All the conjecture just got me thinking about the process.
If you know the answers, please endulge me. If you don't, please refrain and try to enjoy the answers from those who know so that we can all be more informed.

Posted on 1/19/09 at 11:32 pm to Luke4LSU
I am relatively certain that "most" schools police themselves (Athletic Director) and will report any violations (usually small ones). When it comes to big violations, I'm sure the NCAA has a complaint system. Then they likely will look over the complaint, find the violation alleged, look at any and all facts, and contact the accused for information. If information is openly given and the situation is rectified, then no sweat. If the accused withholds information or issues a flat denial, and the strength of the claim is backed up by credible sources, an investigation is likely launched to gather information. But the NCAA isn't the police and can only do so much. As long as the recruiting violations are kept below "Pony Express" levels, it usually yields a slap on the wrist or not enough proof to merit action.
I don't know that this is the process, but it sounds like the aspects that i have seen reported on.
I don't know that this is the process, but it sounds like the aspects that i have seen reported on.
Posted on 1/19/09 at 11:53 pm to Goose
A pencil, paper and some needle nose pliers if I remember correctly.
Posted on 1/20/09 at 12:02 am to Goose
first problem is the ncaa would rather look the other way. they have zero incentive to enforce the rules and govern in constituants.
the main problem stems from its enforcement. most schools report wrong doings such as OU in the rhett bomar- car dealership thing. OU reported the problem, and had all the games bomar played in forfeited. they were given back the wins on appeal, but they screwed themselves by mentioning it in the first place
the ncaa is trying to investigate SC about the reggie bush thing, but noone will cooperate with them, so they cant get anywhere, b/c they have no power to make people talk.
ultimately, if you report yourself, you bend right over for them. if you just deny and cover up problems, they look the other way, all is fine in the world

the main problem stems from its enforcement. most schools report wrong doings such as OU in the rhett bomar- car dealership thing. OU reported the problem, and had all the games bomar played in forfeited. they were given back the wins on appeal, but they screwed themselves by mentioning it in the first place
the ncaa is trying to investigate SC about the reggie bush thing, but noone will cooperate with them, so they cant get anywhere, b/c they have no power to make people talk.
ultimately, if you report yourself, you bend right over for them. if you just deny and cover up problems, they look the other way, all is fine in the world



This post was edited on 1/20/09 at 12:03 am
Posted on 1/20/09 at 12:16 am to LSUTIGER in TEXAS
quote:
first problem is the ncaa would rather look the other way. they have zero incentive to enforce the rules and govern in constituants.
Fact.
People on this board spend their time talking about USC favoritism with the Bush thing. It isn't USC favoritism it would be the same at most big colleges.
To get the NCAA to come down you have to have blatant dealing like SMU pre-death penalty or OU with Bomar or Baylor with the death or CU with a rape.
Basically it takes a big time PR problem or something incredibly blatant.
Posted on 1/20/09 at 12:40 am to LSUtigahs28
The NCAA is an organization of member institutions which are dedicated to the philosophy of self governance. Each member institution (school) must have a compliance office which is required to report ALL violations of NCAA rules. Where there is evidence or a possibility of an infraction, the School's compliance office is charged with the duty to investigate.
Problem is that there is arguably huge internal incentive to disregard credible evidence. The NCAA tries to counter balance this with providing incentives for self-reporting violations. These incentives are often scoffed at or even disregarded totally, in a recent case involving Women's Tennis standout Megan Falcon, the compliance office at LSU self-reported Ms. Falcon's failure to register properly at Professional Tennis events (in tennis there is no draft, so younger athletes can maintain there collegiate eligibility by entering the professional tournaments as an ameteur). Ms. Falcon's coach, ostensibly to keep Falcon from going to college filled out a couple of tournament entry forms improperly. Despite receiving no pay in excess of her expenses, Ms. Falcon and the compliance office self-reported, ultimately she lost her freshman year of eligibility. The same thing happened at Arkansas, the NCAA infractions committee learned of the infraction due to an article in the NY Times. The Arkansas player received a penalty identical to Ms. Falcon's, so much for an incentive to self report.
Another problem with the procedures lie in the NCAA's inherent authority, they have none, they are simply an organization without subpoena power and incapable of taking oaths which carry the penalty of purjury. Therefore, the NCAA is heavily reliant upon both self governance. At times, as is the case with the Reggie Bush fiasco, the NCAA infractions committee will receive information from police investigations, this is where it initially received information which led to the SMU debacle. By the time SMU was found out, there athletic department actually continued to pay athletes because they had contractual (payroll) obligations to athletes which could have been civilly enforceable, apparently the Athletic Dept. at SMU reasoned that the continuation of illicit payment to student-athletes and the possibility of the death penalty was less costly than the probable penalties for non-performance of their contracts with the players (I've never quite figured out why they continued in this fashion, however it is a fact).
Sorry about the rambling, but this is a fascinating area. Many people bash the NCAA or its member institutions for shoddy enforcement of their rules, however you must realize that no system of governance is perfect.
I'm a free market guy so I think they should just allow everything and probably be disbanded as violative of the Sherman Antitrust Act (see the recent suit by Utah against the BCS).
The NCAA and its member institution provide a very demanded product and are constantly trying to figure out how to maintain their status as a non-profit. They are obviously doing something right as evidenced by the success of the quality product they produce year in year out.
Problem is that there is arguably huge internal incentive to disregard credible evidence. The NCAA tries to counter balance this with providing incentives for self-reporting violations. These incentives are often scoffed at or even disregarded totally, in a recent case involving Women's Tennis standout Megan Falcon, the compliance office at LSU self-reported Ms. Falcon's failure to register properly at Professional Tennis events (in tennis there is no draft, so younger athletes can maintain there collegiate eligibility by entering the professional tournaments as an ameteur). Ms. Falcon's coach, ostensibly to keep Falcon from going to college filled out a couple of tournament entry forms improperly. Despite receiving no pay in excess of her expenses, Ms. Falcon and the compliance office self-reported, ultimately she lost her freshman year of eligibility. The same thing happened at Arkansas, the NCAA infractions committee learned of the infraction due to an article in the NY Times. The Arkansas player received a penalty identical to Ms. Falcon's, so much for an incentive to self report.
Another problem with the procedures lie in the NCAA's inherent authority, they have none, they are simply an organization without subpoena power and incapable of taking oaths which carry the penalty of purjury. Therefore, the NCAA is heavily reliant upon both self governance. At times, as is the case with the Reggie Bush fiasco, the NCAA infractions committee will receive information from police investigations, this is where it initially received information which led to the SMU debacle. By the time SMU was found out, there athletic department actually continued to pay athletes because they had contractual (payroll) obligations to athletes which could have been civilly enforceable, apparently the Athletic Dept. at SMU reasoned that the continuation of illicit payment to student-athletes and the possibility of the death penalty was less costly than the probable penalties for non-performance of their contracts with the players (I've never quite figured out why they continued in this fashion, however it is a fact).
Sorry about the rambling, but this is a fascinating area. Many people bash the NCAA or its member institutions for shoddy enforcement of their rules, however you must realize that no system of governance is perfect.
I'm a free market guy so I think they should just allow everything and probably be disbanded as violative of the Sherman Antitrust Act (see the recent suit by Utah against the BCS).
The NCAA and its member institution provide a very demanded product and are constantly trying to figure out how to maintain their status as a non-profit. They are obviously doing something right as evidenced by the success of the quality product they produce year in year out.
Posted on 1/20/09 at 6:30 am to rabend1
The NCAA Sanction Board is a impotent group of wimps.
They have proof of Reggie Bush cheating (taking money from an agent to stay at a hotel along with the free family house) and here we are years later and nothing has been done.
They are inept, incompetent and impotent.
They have proof of Reggie Bush cheating (taking money from an agent to stay at a hotel along with the free family house) and here we are years later and nothing has been done.
They are inept, incompetent and impotent.
Posted on 1/20/09 at 7:11 am to rabend1
Thanks for the intelligent, non-rantarded responses, guys 

Posted on 1/20/09 at 7:53 am to TigerMyth36
quote:
They have proof of Reggie Bush cheating (taking money from an agent to stay at a hotel along with the free family house) and here we are years later and nothing has been done.
actually, they don't have proof because the people who know this info or have these documents aren't talking anymore
the NCAA can't make them talk. they're not a governmental agency
Posted on 1/20/09 at 7:56 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
actually, they don't have proof because the people who know this info or have these documents aren't talking anymore
the NCAA can't make them talk. they're not a governmental agency
Reg trying to keep his deposition out of the hands of NCAA investigators raised my eyebrows. Before then, I thought everyone was just whinin' and hatin'.
After his request before the judge, I realized he was guilty as frick.
Posted on 1/20/09 at 7:59 am to Roaad
definitely guilty
also cold, callous, and almost mob-like in how he handled all the people who he had dealt with in college
but what you know and what you can prove are 2 different things
also cold, callous, and almost mob-like in how he handled all the people who he had dealt with in college
but what you know and what you can prove are 2 different things
Posted on 1/20/09 at 9:35 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:wait til people are able to read minds.
but what you know and what you can prove are 2 different things
Posted on 1/20/09 at 9:37 am to Goose
Normally all that is required is for Bama to start recruiting someone.
Posted on 1/20/09 at 9:42 am to Peachtree Tiger
quote:fixed
Normally all that is required is for Bama Boosters to start recruiting someone.
Posted on 1/20/09 at 10:25 am to TigerMyth36
quote:
They have proof of Reggie Bush cheating (taking money from an agent to stay at a hotel along with the free family house) and here we are years later and nothing has been done.
They are inept, incompetent and impotent.
Do you know why they won't go after USC?
Posted on 1/20/09 at 10:28 am to Luke4LSU
Sorry
This post was edited on 1/20/09 at 10:30 am
Posted on 1/20/09 at 11:23 am to Luke4LSU
Nothing illegal about Pratt. He just changed his mind or didn't have grades. OSU is in the Big 12 and their grade requirements are lower than SEC.
Posted on 1/20/09 at 11:28 am to Teacher
quote:
Nothing illegal about Pratt. He just changed his mind or didn't have grades. OSU is in the Big 12 and their grade requirements are lower than SEC.
I highly doubt that. Most schools and basically every major football power take all qualifiers
Posted on 1/20/09 at 11:42 am to usc6158
quote:
I highly doubt that. Most schools and basically every major football power take all qualifiers
It's very true. The Big 12 has a lower core requirement than the SEC. Phil Loadholt who currently plays OT for oklahoma was an LSU committ, couldnt get cleared, switched to Okie and played his first year there. Happened with a few other as well.
Dez Bryant was a heavy LSU lean at one point in his recruitment, almost same situation.
The Big East is another with lower requirements as Mike Ford was a Bama committ, couldn't get in and switched to USF.
All conferences have to adhear to the NCAA minimums but many have a stronger requirements.
Sometimes member institutions even have stricter requirements than their conference requirements (Miami in the ACC)
It definately is true.
Posted on 1/20/09 at 11:48 am to Luke4LSU
A drug addled stripper and a frat party.
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