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Message
re: Voluntary Withdrawals
Posted on 11/5/19 at 11:28 am to lsufanva
Posted on 11/5/19 at 11:28 am to lsufanva
quote:
That's the way I read it as well. Just don't remember when certain kids like Joseph left. He's the only one I think is close to the timeframe.
Joseph and Netherly both left right when the fall term started. Like I said in the OP, I'm not sure if they were enrolled or not.
You guys are correct about it needing to be prior to the beginning of fall classes or the first game, whichever is earlier.
quote:
15.5.6.4.1 Preseason Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in an ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter).
I think what Alabama does to apply this to recruiting is have the player enroll for the 3 week winter session and join the team in December, then go on scholarship in the spring.
1
Posted on 11/5/19 at 11:29 am to Indiana Tiger
This is long and I'm sure many won't read. I'm writing this to bookmark it for reference.
Some terms to get familiar with:
o A “counter” is an individual who is receiving institutional financial aid that is countable against the aid limitations in a sport. Football is limited to 85.
o An “initial counter” is a counter who is receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time. Football is limited to 25.
o Signees: there shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of prospective student-athletes who may sign a National Letter of Intent or an institutional offer of financial aid and student-athletes who may sign a financial aid agreement for the first time.
o Note a signee and an initial counter are not the same thing. You can be a signee, but not an initial counter or vice versa. These are two separate limitions. They could have made them the same, but they didn't.
o academic year: the time frame that these limitations apply. We're in the 2019-2020 academic year. The recruits we are signing this dec and feb are applied to the 2020-2021 academic year.
o There is a hard cap on initial counters and signees in the sense that you only get 25 in each academic year. But if you don't use that allotment in a given year you can "bank" the unused portion to use in a future academic year. An EE can be backcounted (actually current count would be more accurate since it is applied to the current academic year) to the previous class if you had the bank to cover it. This bank could be carried forward in perpetuity as long as you have the EEs to cover it.
o Preseason Voluntary Withdrawal: Here is the rule:
This rule was lobbied for by Saban after L. Hawkins (?) bailed on us during fall camp. He wanted to transfer the scholarship to a walkon and wasn't allowed. In this situation, the new guy becomes a counter in the current academic year, but because he is replacing a counter, it doesn't effect the 85. Someone in their first academic year can't get a ship until the spring. Note that there is no exception for the initial counter or signee limit. So while he won't have a net effect on the 85, he will count against the initial counter and signee limits of this or the next academic year (i.e. the class we're signing now). This essentially gives you another EE and that is all.
o Voluntary Withdrawal From the Institution During the Academic Year: Here is the rule:
It's written a little different, but it has the same effect as the preseason rule. There is no exception for initial counter or signee. One way or the other these will bite you in the arse.
o But Alabama does it bullshite. There is no evidence of this. It's just bullshite on the internet by people who don't understand the rules or the actual circumstances. At some later point something like well the guy didn't qualify and he never signed the papers, or he's on academic or he's a grayshirt always comes out. You only believe this crap because it's bias confirmation.
Some terms to get familiar with:
o A “counter” is an individual who is receiving institutional financial aid that is countable against the aid limitations in a sport. Football is limited to 85.
o An “initial counter” is a counter who is receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time. Football is limited to 25.
o Signees: there shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of prospective student-athletes who may sign a National Letter of Intent or an institutional offer of financial aid and student-athletes who may sign a financial aid agreement for the first time.
o Note a signee and an initial counter are not the same thing. You can be a signee, but not an initial counter or vice versa. These are two separate limitions. They could have made them the same, but they didn't.
o academic year: the time frame that these limitations apply. We're in the 2019-2020 academic year. The recruits we are signing this dec and feb are applied to the 2020-2021 academic year.
o There is a hard cap on initial counters and signees in the sense that you only get 25 in each academic year. But if you don't use that allotment in a given year you can "bank" the unused portion to use in a future academic year. An EE can be backcounted (actually current count would be more accurate since it is applied to the current academic year) to the previous class if you had the bank to cover it. This bank could be carried forward in perpetuity as long as you have the EEs to cover it.
o Preseason Voluntary Withdrawal: Here is the rule:
quote:
15.5.6.4.1 Preseason Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in an ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter). (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)
This rule was lobbied for by Saban after L. Hawkins (?) bailed on us during fall camp. He wanted to transfer the scholarship to a walkon and wasn't allowed. In this situation, the new guy becomes a counter in the current academic year, but because he is replacing a counter, it doesn't effect the 85. Someone in their first academic year can't get a ship until the spring. Note that there is no exception for the initial counter or signee limit. So while he won't have a net effect on the 85, he will count against the initial counter and signee limits of this or the next academic year (i.e. the class we're signing now). This essentially gives you another EE and that is all.
o Voluntary Withdrawal From the Institution During the Academic Year: Here is the rule:
quote:
15.5.6.4.2 Voluntary Withdrawal From the Institution During the Academic Year. [FBS/ FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws (e.g., transfer, official religious mission) from the institution during the academic year by providing the financial aid to another student-athlete, including an incoming student-athlete, beginning with the ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter or spring quarter) without making the second student-athlete a counter for the remainder of that academic year. The departing student-athlete’s aid may be canceled upon the institution’s receipt of a signed statement from the student-athlete releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. If such a statement is received, a hearing opportunity (per Bylaw 15.3.2.3) is not required. (Adopted: 4/25/18 effective 8/1/18)
It's written a little different, but it has the same effect as the preseason rule. There is no exception for initial counter or signee. One way or the other these will bite you in the arse.
o But Alabama does it bullshite. There is no evidence of this. It's just bullshite on the internet by people who don't understand the rules or the actual circumstances. At some later point something like well the guy didn't qualify and he never signed the papers, or he's on academic or he's a grayshirt always comes out. You only believe this crap because it's bias confirmation.
Posted on 11/5/19 at 11:57 am to lsufanva
quote:
That's the way I read it as well. Just don't remember when certain kids like Joseph left. He's the only one I think is close to the timeframe.
Yes, Joseph or someone who transferred out in the Spring/Summer could potentially count, but the trick is you can't let the recruit sign an LOI or give them any aid, but they have to enroll in school. You have to sell them on the idea that if they walk on, pay their own way, and you're granted the waiver, they will get their scholarship. It's a convoluted way of grey shirting, and then counting the grey shirt back rather than forward.
In theory it's possible for us but still a bit of a stretch. The kid has to gain walk-on status before they can be awarded the replacement, meaning they have to be both enrolled and participate in team activities. Bama did it in a very clever way by having their two (kicker and lil Bear) enroll in wintersession early, never sign an LOI, and then get replacement schollies in the spring.
So to summarize you need a kid who:
1) Has the grades to be accepted to the school and graduated highschool early enough to enroll in wintersession
2) has parents willing to shell out several thousand on intersession tuition
3) has not been officially recruited to the extent that they count as a recruited athlete
4) wants in bad enough to put up with all that and still show up
It's an interesting idea for sure but I'll be pretty surprised if we can actually pull it off. Would be pretty funny if Max Johnson ended up going this route and getting us another spot in this class after the shite he's caught on this board. He and his dad are supposedly stoked about him playing here and he hasn't burned his OV yet.
Posted on 11/5/19 at 2:05 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
They are ways around the 25. Bama signed 28 last year and have said they will sign 27 this year
Posted on 11/5/19 at 2:12 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
That's the only one I could see is max johnson
Posted on 11/5/19 at 2:59 pm to HK53
quote:
They are ways around the 25. Bama signed 28 last year and have said they will sign 27 this year
They did that by back counting, they only signed 21 in the 18' class.
Where it gets fuzzy is how or if Paul Tyson and Will Reichard count. Indiana is right in that the rule states a counter may be replaced, but it does not say an initial counter. The more I read the more I think Bama was just able to convince them to walk on and never had to count them at all. Not unreasonable that a kicker and a legacy practice squad QB would walk on, and the NCAA probably wouldn't bat an eye at it as long as they didn't sign LOIs or receive aid. None of this is public info, so we'll probably never know.
After one year they could receive aid and not count against the 25 initial counters, which was amended in 2018.
quote:
13.9.2.3 Limitation on Number of National Letter of Intent/Offer of Financial Aid Signings -- Bowl Subdivision Football. In bowl subdivision football, there shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of prospective student-athletes who may sign a National Letter of Intent or an institutional offer of financial aid and student-athletes who may sign a financial aid agreement for the first time. [D]
[13.9.2.3.1 unchanged.]
13.9.2.3.2 Exception -- Agreement After One Year. A student-athlete who has been in residence at the certifying institution for at least one academic year may sign a financial aid agreement for the first time without counting toward the annual limit on signings.
[13.9.2.3.3 unchanged.]
LINK
This post was edited on 11/5/19 at 3:15 pm
Posted on 11/5/19 at 3:24 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
So to summarize you need a kid who:
1) Has the grades to be accepted to the school and graduated highschool early enough to enroll in wintersession
2) has parents willing to shell out several thousand on intersession tuition
3) has not been officially recruited to the extent that they count as a recruited athlete
4) wants in bad enough to put up with all that and still show up
To summarize, if you put someone on athletic scholarship before he has been in residence for one academic year, he counts against the signee limits. There is no exception around this. The new signing rules eliminated blueshirting for football.
Posted on 11/5/19 at 4:15 pm to lsufanva
If Bama can do it, LSU needs to blue, gray, cut, process or do whatever to get as many into the class as possible.
Posted on 11/5/19 at 5:48 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
Well that about sums it up. Personally, I'm just taking in the process day by day and enjoying the ride. Just a little over 2 months ago, I was watching LSU football replay games from last year dying for the season to start and now we are more than halfway through the season. My take on it is that the coaches will choose the best talent in the most needed positions and we will all just have to wait and see how this thing chimes out..
Posted on 11/5/19 at 6:37 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
Seems like you guys are correct that voluntary withdrawals won't help with gaining a spot for more recruits.
But, I did read an interesting bylaw where a nonrecruited student athlete can count either in the current year, or the next year if the team has already used all of its counters in the current year.
The definition of a nonrecruited player:
That doesn't seem like it would be too hard to pull off. Especially for local kids.
But, I did read an interesting bylaw where a nonrecruited student athlete can count either in the current year, or the next year if the team has already used all of its counters in the current year.
The definition of a nonrecruited player:
quote:
15.02.8 Recruited Student-Athlete. For purposes of Bylaw 15, a recruited student-athlete is a student-athlete who, as a prospective student-athlete: (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) Was provided an official visit to the institution's campus;
(b) Had an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with a member of the institution's coaching staff (including a coach's arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete's parents, relatives or legal guardians); or
(c) Was issued a National Letter of Intent or a written offer of athletically related financial aid by the institution for a regular academic term.
That doesn't seem like it would be too hard to pull off. Especially for local kids.
Posted on 11/5/19 at 7:21 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
Where it gets fuzzy is how or if Paul Tyson
I don't know anything about the other guy, but Tyson is probably on some non athletic aid and you have more flexibility with that. If he wasn't technically recruited, then he could just be a walk on. If he was recruited, he wouldn't count unless he played. If he didn't play the first year and maintained a 3.0+ on a 4.0 scale, he would never count. If he played the first year, he would be an initial counter, but not a signee because those deal with athletic ships. Assuming that they used up all their signings, they could only do this because they have an extra initial counter. This could happen because they had a nonqualifier signee. That person would count as a signee, but never become an initial counter, so they would have an extra to give.
Posted on 11/5/19 at 7:31 pm to whitefoot
quote:
I did read an interesting bylaw where a nonrecruited student athlete can count either in the current year, or the next year if the team has already used all of its counters in the current year.
The definition of a nonrecruited player:
This is a blueshirt. When you wrap your head around the fact that counter and signee are not the same thing and both limits must be respected, you'll understand why this will not work.
Posted on 11/5/19 at 8:45 pm to nicholastiger
quote:
Bama can do it, LSU needs to blue, gray, cut, process or do whatever to get as many into the class as possible.
bama did it by back counting. We signed 25 in 2019's class so we cant back count so the most we can take is 25
Posted on 11/6/19 at 10:17 am to whitefoot
Just want to congratulate OP on starting a classic recruiting board "nuanced rule analysis" thread. 36 different opinions and armchair rule interpretation without a single person knowing what they are talking about. 
Posted on 11/6/19 at 10:46 pm to whitefoot
quote:
I think what Alabama does to apply this to recruiting is have the player enroll for the 3 week winter session and join the team in December, then go on scholarship in the spring.
Right. To be eligible for a replacement scholly (which only counts against the 85 limit) via the voluntary withdrawal exception rule, the player must be a nonrecruited (no off-campus meeting, no OV, and no NLI or aid agreement) enrolled walkon paying his own way. If a player withdraws before the fall term, another player who's been a walkon for at least one year can immediately get the replacement scholly for that fall term. A player who's been a walkon for less than one year can't get one until after that fall term (additional explanation).This post was edited on 11/9/19 at 9:39 am
Posted on 11/6/19 at 11:24 pm to Tigerlaff
One person here knows exactly what they are talking about.
Posted on 11/6/19 at 11:30 pm to Cadello
quote:
One person here knows exactly what they are talking about.
Indiana Tiger does. And it appears whitefoot understands some stuff pretty well too.
This post was edited on 11/7/19 at 7:29 am
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