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30 + 29 + 28 + 32 = 85 (The practice of oversigning)
Posted on 2/6/10 at 4:54 pm
Posted on 2/6/10 at 4:54 pm
Not sure this is the right board to post this on, but since it does deal with recruiting and the practice of over-signing, I decided it fit here more than anywhere else.
It has a definite anti-SEC slant to it, but more against Saban than the entire conference.
LINK /
It has a definite anti-SEC slant to it, but more against Saban than the entire conference.
quote:
Preliminary indications are that the teams in the SEC (and a few other programs around the country) are using this practice as a way to strengthen their depth and gain a competitive advantage. It also appears that when comparing programs, if all other things are relatively equal, such as tradition, level of talent that it can recruit, facilities, and coaching, but there is a wide gap in the recruiting numbers, the programs who run through more players seem to have better results in the W/L column. The one anomaly appears to be USC which does not oversign but only signs 4 and 5 star recruits.
On the other hand, teams like LSU, Alabama, and Florida which have accounted for 5 of the last 7 National Championships and a combined 10-3 BCS Bowl record, are habitual abusers of oversigning (LSU and Alabama much more so than Florida). There is a ton of data to look at and analyze and we'll get into that later; the bottom line is that there is enough evidence on the surface to warrant further investigation.
In addition, there are several aspects to the practice of oversigning that don't get enough attention; what happens to the players who are shuffled out of programs to make room for new recruits? What is their side of the story? Where do they end up? Where is the NCAA on this? Why are coaches not speaking up more?
LINK /
9
Posted on 2/6/10 at 5:47 pm to Atari
needs to be stickied forever
Posted on 2/6/10 at 5:52 pm to Atari
When I posted it, my thread got whacked. No one ever told me why.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 6:03 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
When I posted it, my thread got whacked. No one ever told me why.
Well it does talk poorly about the recruiting practices of LSU. If it gets whacked, it gets whacked.
I've just seen a lot of talk about who has to greyshirt or who gets cut and I thought I'd post it.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 6:15 pm to Atari
a scholarship is a one year agreement. if a player does not progress to the coaches liking they can sign a player to come in and compete fro that ship. thats why the schools mentioned do better. compition at every position everyday. it can only make a team better.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 6:20 pm to TheOfficial
quote:
a scholarship is a one year agreement.
Do you really believe that's what the coaches tell kids when they're in their homes? I don't know, I wasn't good enough to be recruited. I had a friend who was heavily recruited for baseball but he was drafted and signed a minor league contract.
I tend to think parents are told their sons will be taken care for their 4 years. Maybe not in those exact terms but I bet that's what they're lead to believe.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 6:29 pm to Atari
quote:
I tend to think parents are told their sons will be taken care for their 4 years. Maybe not in those exact terms but I bet that's what they're lead to believe.
yeah i dont think a coach would tell them it is a one year deal. the sad thing is though thats the truth. and if you were in miles' shoes and caught as much hell as he has would you want to trim some fat so to speak? not saying thats the best way to handles things or i agree with that practice. i just think that oversigning=more compitition=more wins. as the number in the post indicate.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 6:34 pm to TheOfficial
That's really all I'm saying. I doubt it happens, but ultimately I'd like to see it become such an issue that the NCAA has to step in and say "no more."
If you want to treat the kids like pro athletes, pay them like pro athletes. I don't want to ever see it come to that.
If you want to treat the kids like pro athletes, pay them like pro athletes. I don't want to ever see it come to that.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 6:52 pm to Atari
I don't know how much LSU does in the yanking of scholarships??? It doesn't appear to be done all that much from what I can tell.
I don't really have a problem with yanking a scholarship in some cases where some one totally tanks. For example a WR that gains 50 pounds and can't out run a lineman for example.
I don't like the idea of yanking scholarships on people you bet on that just aren't quite as good as you thought. Or what Saban has supposedly done in yanking scholarships from upper classmen just so he could bring in better young talent.
My brother got a track scholarship at McNeese. It was a full scholarship too, not that common either. Well he was having a great freshman year and even made a good enough time in the 200m to qualify for Nationals depending on what others did. He then pulled a muscle and it was his senior year before he was really able to compete competitively again.
Well the coaches never pulled his scholarship despite the fact that he was injured. That really means something in my mind even to this day. It was the right thing to do.
I don't know what the rules should be on this but in todays day world it is ashame that coaches feel so much pressure that this is an issue.
I guess in my ideal world coaches that do this would get the cold shoulder from recruits and suffer in recruiting because of it.
I don't really have a problem with yanking a scholarship in some cases where some one totally tanks. For example a WR that gains 50 pounds and can't out run a lineman for example.
I don't like the idea of yanking scholarships on people you bet on that just aren't quite as good as you thought. Or what Saban has supposedly done in yanking scholarships from upper classmen just so he could bring in better young talent.
My brother got a track scholarship at McNeese. It was a full scholarship too, not that common either. Well he was having a great freshman year and even made a good enough time in the 200m to qualify for Nationals depending on what others did. He then pulled a muscle and it was his senior year before he was really able to compete competitively again.
Well the coaches never pulled his scholarship despite the fact that he was injured. That really means something in my mind even to this day. It was the right thing to do.
I don't know what the rules should be on this but in todays day world it is ashame that coaches feel so much pressure that this is an issue.
I guess in my ideal world coaches that do this would get the cold shoulder from recruits and suffer in recruiting because of it.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 6:57 pm to omegaman66
sticky
Posted on 2/6/10 at 7:44 pm to Atari
One thing I'm curious to see if they address is the fact that all of the habitual over signers are in the south, which usually has much crappier education systems than other parts of the country. We all know that every year coaches in the SEC sign 1-2 kids per class(or more) that they know have 0% chance of qualifying, but want the opportunity to forge a relationship and help place them in a friendly JUCO. No current player is displaced in that scenario, but it's going to be counted as "oversigning".
Posted on 2/6/10 at 7:56 pm to Atari
Personally IMO, after reading that article, I think Tressel, Paterno (and all the other Big10 coaches) are idiots for not oversigning.
The author basically uses way too many words to make the simple point that SEC coaches oversign to give themselves a competitive advantage and - while somewhat irresponsible and unfair to the student athletes on scholarship - it typically works. Ummm... Yeah. The big10 coaches are stupid for not doing the same thing, IMO.
It was definitely an interesting article, but it's weird.... I came away from reading the article wanting LSU to sign a class of 30 every year now, wheras the author was trying to convince us all that oversigning is a bad practice. Ironic.
The author basically uses way too many words to make the simple point that SEC coaches oversign to give themselves a competitive advantage and - while somewhat irresponsible and unfair to the student athletes on scholarship - it typically works. Ummm... Yeah. The big10 coaches are stupid for not doing the same thing, IMO.
It was definitely an interesting article, but it's weird.... I came away from reading the article wanting LSU to sign a class of 30 every year now, wheras the author was trying to convince us all that oversigning is a bad practice. Ironic.
This post was edited on 2/6/10 at 8:00 pm
Posted on 2/6/10 at 8:07 pm to JPLSU1981
I think that comes from him trying to make certain programs look bad. The guy comes across as a Big 10/Notre Dame homer. If he'd instead focused on the players who have been cast aside you might feel more inclined to say it's a bad practice.
I hate the idea of USING these kids, and that's what's happening.
I hate the idea of USING these kids, and that's what's happening.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 8:10 pm to Atari
its not even true of LSU.
Let them investigate. You can look up the numbers, anyone.
1. Only had 24 on campus last year. TWENTY FOUR. You can have 25.
2. While Rivals credits LSU with 29 'commits', in fact LSU did not receive 29 LOI. 27 actual LOI, which is one less than the conference limit.
Being one under the SEC limit does not sound like
"pushing the envelope".
This year, two early enrollee's eat up the 'open' slot from last year's 24.
27-1 = 26. So.... LSU is sitting on 26 LOI's.
Look at OLE MISS and BAMA. They actually did the practice LSU is challenged about. LSU did not.
I cannot comment on the suggestion of running guys off who are not up to the coaches standards.
Let them investigate. You can look up the numbers, anyone.
1. Only had 24 on campus last year. TWENTY FOUR. You can have 25.
2. While Rivals credits LSU with 29 'commits', in fact LSU did not receive 29 LOI. 27 actual LOI, which is one less than the conference limit.
Being one under the SEC limit does not sound like
"pushing the envelope".
This year, two early enrollee's eat up the 'open' slot from last year's 24.
27-1 = 26. So.... LSU is sitting on 26 LOI's.
Look at OLE MISS and BAMA. They actually did the practice LSU is challenged about. LSU did not.
I cannot comment on the suggestion of running guys off who are not up to the coaches standards.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 8:11 pm to Atari
quote:
If he'd instead focused on the players who have been cast aside you might feel more inclined to say it's a bad practice.
Exactly... He needs to show me examples of players that got "cut".. maybe quotes from them saying they feel betrayed or what not... and where they ended up, what they ended up doing with their lives.
As far as merely winning and losing games and playing within the rules, it appears oversigning is the way to go, IMO. You give yourself a competitive advantage. It may not be responsible, and it may be unfair to some student athletes, but nonetheless the name of the game is not fairness, it is winning and losing. The fans, especially in this conference (the SEC), have made it that way.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 8:11 pm to OldManRiver
We all know that every year coaches in the SEC sign 1-2 kids per class(or more) that they know have 0% chance of qualifying, but want the opportunity to forge a relationship and help place them in a friendly JUCO. No current player is displaced in that scenario, but it's going to be counted as "oversigning".
I wish we had a mechanism to see, I AGREE, a button we can hit.
Well said.
I wish we had a mechanism to see, I AGREE, a button we can hit.
Well said.
Posted on 2/6/10 at 8:15 pm to ottothewise
Yeah, but just because the SEC will allow 28 LOIs, that does not mean a school has 28 spots available.
Don't get me wrong, as I said earlier, I have no problem with oversigning and someone(s) getting cut to make room if need be. Yes, some kids will suffer because of this, but IMO that's the risk they take choosing to play college sports. It is indeed a choice they make.
But, just because you can "legally" sign 28 per SEC rules, DOES NOT mean that you have 28 schollys available.... Hell, you may only have 20 available based on your current roster.
Don't get me wrong, as I said earlier, I have no problem with oversigning and someone(s) getting cut to make room if need be. Yes, some kids will suffer because of this, but IMO that's the risk they take choosing to play college sports. It is indeed a choice they make.
But, just because you can "legally" sign 28 per SEC rules, DOES NOT mean that you have 28 schollys available.... Hell, you may only have 20 available based on your current roster.
This post was edited on 2/6/10 at 8:18 pm
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:14 am to JPLSU1981
quote:
Personally IMO, after reading that article, I think Tressel, Paterno (and all the other Big10 coaches) are idiots for not oversigning.
The author basically uses way too many words to make the simple point that SEC coaches oversign to give themselves a competitive advantage and - while somewhat irresponsible and unfair to the student athletes on scholarship - it typically works. Ummm... Yeah. The big10 coaches are stupid for not doing the same thing, IMO.
It was definitely an interesting article, but it's weird.... I came away from reading the article wanting LSU to sign a class of 30 every year now, wheras the author was trying to convince us all that oversigning is a bad practice. Ironic.
I guess it depends whether you prefer a win at all possible cost attitude or not. Personally, I'm fine with what Tress does, much more than I'd be if he oversigned kids and then cut kids who did everything right (but just weren't as good as thought), because there had to be scholarship room. I don't think that's right.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 12:57 am to Atari
College football is a business in Baton Rouge and in Columbus. It is about winning anywhere. IMO college athletes should be allowed to transfer without sitting out. This would justify the 1 year scholly policy. You could put limits on this like transfers have to go out of conference to not lose a year. I am not really interested in big ten fans who keep crying because the best players want to play in the SEC. This is happening and I know it's hard to deal with, but it is more than just about oversigning. The Big Ten is fading because high school football in the south is growing stronger. Recruiting bases are growing deeper in the SEC. It's more than just about the Big Ten suffering because they are morally superior.
Posted on 2/7/10 at 1:31 am to JPLSU1981
quote:
I have no problem with oversigning and someone(s) getting cut to make room if need be.
So you would take a scholarship from a kid just because he wasn't as good as you thought he'd be?
That's a shitty way to deal with people.
Karma is a bitch.
This post was edited on 2/7/10 at 4:27 am
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