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HVAC monitoring devices - worth it?
Posted on 6/19/20 at 1:10 pm
Posted on 6/19/20 at 1:10 pm
I found a few different ones that start around $300 (Sentree by Alert Labs looks slick), some with monthly monitoring fees and some without. I could put together a DIY system for much cheaper than that, but before I do I was wondering if it would even be worth it.
If you constantly monitor the temp and pressure of the liquid and vapor lines, along with ambient temp and compressor current draw, could that information help with maintenance and result in cheaper service visits in the long run? I guess what I'm asking is would these values creep up over time and serve as an early warning of complete failure, or do the typical failure modes usually happen quickly and without days/weeks/months worth of warning signs?
If you constantly monitor the temp and pressure of the liquid and vapor lines, along with ambient temp and compressor current draw, could that information help with maintenance and result in cheaper service visits in the long run? I guess what I'm asking is would these values creep up over time and serve as an early warning of complete failure, or do the typical failure modes usually happen quickly and without days/weeks/months worth of warning signs?
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Posted on 6/19/20 at 1:30 pm to Korkstand
I am not sure on HVAC monitoring, but I know, most insurance companies are starting to give a good discount for having a monitored water flow valve, or automatic shut off.
Posted on 6/19/20 at 1:45 pm to anewguy
AC systems are a closed system. It would be cheaper to have a ac guy come in once a year to check things. God, young people are just getting dumber by the minute. 
Posted on 6/19/20 at 2:27 pm to Korkstand
It really depends on what is likely to fail. Often, the coil develops a leak. This would not be something picked up proactively, although it would detect a change in refrigerant charge quicker than you would “feel” it inside your home. However, the repair costs would be the same.
In my experience, blowers in the air handlers don’t typically fail. Many people use these blowers as fans on removed units, and they keep spinning for ages in poor conditions.
Condenser unit fan/bearings or capacitor will also fail. Capacitor can happen pretty often and not sure you’d pick it up by monitoring amperage. Fan bearings would need some sort of vibration monitor or something, but again I’m not sure how much a proactive approach would save you here.
The biggest advantage of having a monitoring system would be early warning of system performance or small leaks. This would allow you to proactively plan for service visits vs the typical callout because it’s hot AF and needs to be fixed ASAP.
In my experience, blowers in the air handlers don’t typically fail. Many people use these blowers as fans on removed units, and they keep spinning for ages in poor conditions.
Condenser unit fan/bearings or capacitor will also fail. Capacitor can happen pretty often and not sure you’d pick it up by monitoring amperage. Fan bearings would need some sort of vibration monitor or something, but again I’m not sure how much a proactive approach would save you here.
The biggest advantage of having a monitoring system would be early warning of system performance or small leaks. This would allow you to proactively plan for service visits vs the typical callout because it’s hot AF and needs to be fixed ASAP.
Posted on 6/19/20 at 2:52 pm to fishfighter
quote:I would still get it checked yearly, but I was thinking a monitoring system would be even more useful for the tech so he would have an idea of the state of the system before he even comes out.
AC systems are a closed system. It would be cheaper to have a ac guy come in once a year to check things. God, young people are just getting dumber by the minute.
Posted on 6/19/20 at 3:33 pm to LSUtigerME
quote:Thanks for the info.
It really depends on what is likely to fail. Often, the coil develops a leak. This would not be something picked up proactively, although it would detect a change in refrigerant charge quicker than you would “feel” it inside your home. However, the repair costs would be the same.
In my experience, blowers in the air handlers don’t typically fail. Many people use these blowers as fans on removed units, and they keep spinning for ages in poor conditions.
Condenser unit fan/bearings or capacitor will also fail. Capacitor can happen pretty often and not sure you’d pick it up by monitoring amperage. Fan bearings would need some sort of vibration monitor or something, but again I’m not sure how much a proactive approach would save you here.
quote:That's kind of what I was thinking.
The biggest advantage of having a monitoring system would be early warning of system performance or small leaks. This would allow you to proactively plan for service visits vs the typical callout because it’s hot AF and needs to be fixed ASAP.
Also, I really like data collection and "smart home" stuff, and I think it would be great to combine this data with indoor temps and thermostat settings so that you can see exactly what your cooling costs are, and how much you could save by adjusting the thermostat. You could also measure the impact of replacing insulation and windows and things like that.
So I guess some people think it's "dumb", but I think more data is always better, especially when it pertains to something that costs as much as air conditioning.
Posted on 6/19/20 at 8:52 pm to Korkstand
Thanks for sharing - I wasn’t aware this type system existed for homeowners (HVAC component). I could see some utility in it for a older system with possibly a known small leak, by monitoring changes superheat and sub-cool, one could tell when the unit might need a shot of refrigerant and be proactive to prevent freezing up and shut down before it happens. Amperage draw monitoring of the compressor could also help to spot a potential issue for an older compressor. Don’t think it would help with monitoring/warning of capacitor failure, a common issue, or a failing fan motor.
But as you know with a HVAC failure can be a slow one with some warning (slow refrigerant leak) or immediate with no warming (bad capacitor). Seems the monitoring system might help with slow failure, but immediate failure, doubtful. But of the two what is more likely - ????
I’m interested in your statement you could build a system cheaper than $300, particularly as it relates to components needed for the high and low pressure refrigerant monitoring for a self built system.
The monitoring system for water heaters from the Sentree website, particularly if located in the attic, make a great deal of sense, and I’ve considered doing this.
But as you know with a HVAC failure can be a slow one with some warning (slow refrigerant leak) or immediate with no warming (bad capacitor). Seems the monitoring system might help with slow failure, but immediate failure, doubtful. But of the two what is more likely - ????
I’m interested in your statement you could build a system cheaper than $300, particularly as it relates to components needed for the high and low pressure refrigerant monitoring for a self built system.
The monitoring system for water heaters from the Sentree website, particularly if located in the attic, make a great deal of sense, and I’ve considered doing this.
Posted on 6/19/20 at 9:34 pm to Korkstand
I’d venture to guess any AC guy would politely nod at your stats and proceed to verify himself. I don’t see where it would be cost effective nor useful. Just unactionable data for the sake of data.
Posted on 6/19/20 at 9:54 pm to CrawDude
quote:I see some pressure transducers that cost over $100, but I also see a bunch in the sub-$20 range. I don't know why those wouldn't work. I believe I could just hook any of them up to the service ports and then write code to interpret the signals.
I’m interested in your statement you could build a system cheaper than $300, particularly as it relates to components needed for the high and low pressure refrigerant monitoring for a self built system.
The temp probes and current transformer are relatively cheap, $10 each tops. The brains of the operation could be an ESP32 or similar for a few bucks, or an RPiZeroW for maybe $20. Add a watertight case, power supply, and misc minor components and I believe I can get it done for around $120, but I'm surely missing something here.
quote:Yeah they have a few neat looking products, all with silly names.
The monitoring system for water heaters from the Sentree website, particularly if located in the attic, make a great deal of sense, and I’ve considered doing this.
Posted on 6/19/20 at 10:17 pm to RaginCajunz
quote:Probably, but the idea is I have hopefully saved a callout charge and possibly a few weeks of inefficient a/c operation.
I’d venture to guess any AC guy would politely nod at your stats and proceed to verify himself.
quote:Hell, I think just the current draw data would be highly useful, if only to gauge how much you're spending on cooling and how many hours you're putting on it. Also, if a cap fails can't your compressor or fan motor burn up? If that happens while you're away, wouldn't you want to get an alert so you can shut down your nest/ecobee thermostat remotely so you're only out a few bucks for a capacitor instead of hundreds?
I don’t see where it would be cost effective nor useful. Just unactionable data for the sake of data.
Posted on 6/19/20 at 11:10 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Also, if a cap fails can't your compressor or fan motor burn up?
I monitor the room temperature and get a text if the threshold is exceeded. I can then shut off my unit remotely.
Posted on 6/20/20 at 6:27 am to Korkstand
My WiFi tstat gives me an indoor temp trend and runtime. I find just these two give a good feel on the performance. Basically when the coils need to be cleaned, but I did catch a condenser fan that was not spinning at rated speed.(bearings??)
You do have to look at it occasionally and cross with weather historical data. It's a quick check, if it runs more than 20 mins per hour at night or more than 50mins per hour during day(on hot days), I look further.
I used the Honeywell tstat that's 10 years old, newer ones may give better info.
You do have to look at it occasionally and cross with weather historical data. It's a quick check, if it runs more than 20 mins per hour at night or more than 50mins per hour during day(on hot days), I look further.
I used the Honeywell tstat that's 10 years old, newer ones may give better info.
Posted on 6/20/20 at 7:09 am to Korkstand
quote:
I would still get it checked yearly, but I was thinking a monitoring system would be even more useful for the tech so he would have an idea of the state of the system before he even comes out.
This is still dumb. A ac guy will break out his gauges and know if the system is low in 5 mins.
If a starting relay is out, he will know right away or any other part. Now if you have the same guy every year come to check your system, there is a good chance that guy will show up ASAP. I know my guy does.
This post was edited on 6/20/20 at 7:11 am
Posted on 6/20/20 at 3:00 pm to fishfighter
quote:Are/were you an a/c guy? Do you have family and friends who are a/c guys? Why you gotta keep calling me dumb?
This is still dumb.
It's a few hundred dollars on top of something that costs 5 figures and another 5 figures in electricity and service visits over its lifetime. If you don't think such active monitoring has the potential to save you more than what it cost, fine, but it's not a completely dumb idea. If over a decade or two it helps to consolidate just one potential callout into a regular service visit, it has paid for itself. If it adds just one year to the life of your system, it has paid for itself. Or maybe your newly-smart a/c can coordinate with your smart tstat and eke out a percent or two or five in energy savings.
Or at the very least you and your a/c guy will be armed with years' worth of efficiency trend data when it comes time to replace your system.
Posted on 6/20/20 at 5:01 pm to Korkstand
I don't know man, but the way you're defending it, it seems like you just want someone to validate your purchase. You've already made up your mind. Do it.
Posted on 6/20/20 at 6:03 pm to Bawcephus
quote:I am defending it not being "dumb". Am I weird for taking exception to that?
I don't know man, but the way you're defending it, it seems like you just want someone to validate your purchase. You've already made up your mind. Do it.
I came here with the idea, so yes obviously I came into it leaning toward doing it. But if I do it at all, I will build my own because I always end up learning things during a DIY job.
I just like to talk things out to flesh out ideas, or to give others ideas.
Posted on 6/20/20 at 7:27 pm to Bawcephus
quote:
I don't know man, but the way you're defending it, it seems like you just want someone to validate your purchase. You've already made up your mind. Do it.
Hell, I think he is trying to sell something that is DUMB and crap.
OP, as my first post. a ac system is a closed system. Only thing that one can do is service it every month unless you happen to be a HVAC person. In another words, clean the intake filter and wash out the condenser outside unit. Doing that, that will keep the system running at prime. Leaks or other parts will break and there is little to nothing one can do to prevent that from happening.
If you want to monitor anything, monitor your power usage in the complete house.
Posted on 6/20/20 at 8:07 pm to Korkstand
quote:
am defending it not being "dumb". Am I weird for taking exception to that? ?
I came here with the idea, so yes obviously I came into it leaning toward doing it. But if I do it at all, I will build my own because I always end up learning things during a DIY job.
I just like to talk things out to flesh out ideas, or to give others ideas.
All I'm saying is you have people giving you reasons it's not cost effective and basically useless to any professional, but you keep moving the goal post about why you think it will be. Do you boo boo. It's not my money or anyone else's.
Posted on 6/20/20 at 9:38 pm to fishfighter
quote:Thanks, I have "it's dumb" three times in the cons column.
fishfighter
Posted on 6/20/20 at 10:55 pm to Bawcephus
quote:And I also got responses saying how it might be cost-effective in the way that I was thinking (avoiding call-outs). Someone also mentioned monitoring motor vibration, and $5 for a sensor and a few lines of code, why not?
All I'm saying is you have people giving you reasons it's not cost effective and basically useless to any professional
quote:Maybe I wasn't clear on where the goalposts were from the beginning. Sorry about that. I came here to learn, and for me learning means tossing around ideas and asking questions. I already knew that you can't foresee every problem, so that's hardly a deal-breaker.
but you keep moving the goal post about why you think it will be. Do you boo boo. It's not my money or anyone else's.
So the cons are the initial cost (which I have the knowledge to minimize), the fact that it won't help with all problems (which is a given for anything), and that it's dumb, apparently. The pros are it might detect some issues early enough to save callout fees, the data it generates could be used to compare your home's energy efficiency vs. others (potential savings), and it is a project that will help me to further develop my skills in electronics and programming.
In addition, in forcing me to hash this out, you and fishfighter have given me the idea to measure the impact of washing out the condenser coil. Then I can optimize my schedule, saving either time (by stretching out the time between cleanings) or money (by cleaning more often to reduce energy use). So, thanks!
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