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Message
DIY Water Line Replacement - Call Me Crazy
Posted on 3/29/23 at 9:17 pm
Posted on 3/29/23 at 9:17 pm
My existing PVC water line has leaks outside that are unlocatable. I dug one up near the meter and the water just leaks into the sandy loam ground underneath. I fixed it and only barely slowed down the overall leaks (I'm still losing about 1 gallon every 7.5 minutes or about 6100 gallons a month). I suspect the line has many leaks.
I'm getting really high plumbing estimates so I'm leaning towards Do-it-yourself. It is 550' trench length but no driveways or any other obstructions or utilities to cross. I will be placing rolled 1" PEX outside and will drill a hole through the block basement wall (and seal it back with hydraulic cement), install quite a few ball valves, a pressure regulator, etc., and will reconnect to my existing water main line inside. All inside PEX will be stiff pipe and not the rolls.
The parts list I have accumulated is right at $2000 and even includes a WiFi Ball valve and access panel inside and two additional valve boxes outside where I plan to add underground hose bibbs near where I burn limbs, etc on our wooded lot. The plumbing quotes I am getting from licenced/insured plumbers are approx. $9K to $10K. I got another quote for $3.5K from two guys who work at the County Water Department but are not licensed and are not insured. Tempting but I can't handle the not insured and no worker's comp.
So I think I can save about $6K if I do the job myself including rentals for the ditch witch and excavator. I also need to buy a PEX crimping tool and a concrete bit for my hammer drill.
This is all very ambitious since Ive never operated a ditch witch and I might also rent a small excavator. I've also never installed PEX, although I have a lot of experience with PVC.
I'm retired, and have always been a handyman type who will tackle basically anything. I've worked on and repaired my HVAC, have done electrical and carpentry type work, metal fabrication, and inside plumbing work on sinks, showers, toilets, disposals and outside plumbing repairing sprinkler systems, running water lines (hand trenched) for outside spigots, concrete work, significant landscaping and more.
We live in a rural town and there are no building permits required.
I was willing to pay a fair price but $9K or $10K has me wanting to do this job myself. I'm already watching YouTube videos on using a Ditch Witch, etc and none of this work seems out of my capabilities even though I greatly respect licensed plumbers and their skills.
Call me crazy, talk me out of this, or if you have any tips or advice, I'm all ears.
I'm getting really high plumbing estimates so I'm leaning towards Do-it-yourself. It is 550' trench length but no driveways or any other obstructions or utilities to cross. I will be placing rolled 1" PEX outside and will drill a hole through the block basement wall (and seal it back with hydraulic cement), install quite a few ball valves, a pressure regulator, etc., and will reconnect to my existing water main line inside. All inside PEX will be stiff pipe and not the rolls.
The parts list I have accumulated is right at $2000 and even includes a WiFi Ball valve and access panel inside and two additional valve boxes outside where I plan to add underground hose bibbs near where I burn limbs, etc on our wooded lot. The plumbing quotes I am getting from licenced/insured plumbers are approx. $9K to $10K. I got another quote for $3.5K from two guys who work at the County Water Department but are not licensed and are not insured. Tempting but I can't handle the not insured and no worker's comp.
So I think I can save about $6K if I do the job myself including rentals for the ditch witch and excavator. I also need to buy a PEX crimping tool and a concrete bit for my hammer drill.
This is all very ambitious since Ive never operated a ditch witch and I might also rent a small excavator. I've also never installed PEX, although I have a lot of experience with PVC.
I'm retired, and have always been a handyman type who will tackle basically anything. I've worked on and repaired my HVAC, have done electrical and carpentry type work, metal fabrication, and inside plumbing work on sinks, showers, toilets, disposals and outside plumbing repairing sprinkler systems, running water lines (hand trenched) for outside spigots, concrete work, significant landscaping and more.
We live in a rural town and there are no building permits required.
I was willing to pay a fair price but $9K or $10K has me wanting to do this job myself. I'm already watching YouTube videos on using a Ditch Witch, etc and none of this work seems out of my capabilities even though I greatly respect licensed plumbers and their skills.
Call me crazy, talk me out of this, or if you have any tips or advice, I'm all ears.
This post was edited on 3/29/23 at 9:53 pm
9
Posted on 3/29/23 at 9:48 pm to 98eagle
Sounds like you got it mostly under control. Make sure by using some water supply calcs that the 1" pex will be sufficient for your house.
The internal diameter of crimp pex (b-type) is one size smaller than regular pipe size because of the fittings taking up the internal space. At 550' I suspect the reduced size (3/4) might be too small and you'll suffer pressure drops. I believe there is some special rolled pipe that is generally used for supply lines. I don't know what it is though. Stay away from pvc for sure though.
Not sure how bug of a deal it is but I'm told that you're not suppose to use household fittings/valves (yellow brass) under ground and suppose to use "red brass" fittings for dirt work.
Not crazy about anything wifi personally but it may not affect things much when it quits working in 5-10 years.
Ditch witches are fun. If it gets to be a lot of work just imagine how much more work it would be hand digging it and it'll be fun again.
The internal diameter of crimp pex (b-type) is one size smaller than regular pipe size because of the fittings taking up the internal space. At 550' I suspect the reduced size (3/4) might be too small and you'll suffer pressure drops. I believe there is some special rolled pipe that is generally used for supply lines. I don't know what it is though. Stay away from pvc for sure though.
Not sure how bug of a deal it is but I'm told that you're not suppose to use household fittings/valves (yellow brass) under ground and suppose to use "red brass" fittings for dirt work.
Not crazy about anything wifi personally but it may not affect things much when it quits working in 5-10 years.
Ditch witches are fun. If it gets to be a lot of work just imagine how much more work it would be hand digging it and it'll be fun again.
Posted on 3/29/23 at 9:54 pm to 98eagle
I dug up my yard with an excavator recently chasing a damn leak too! I feel your pain!
Plumbing is easy, especially with PEX! You'll get the hang of the Ditch Witch quickly, and get the job done. A weekend of work is worth saving $8K in my book! Time your time and do your research ahead of time, and it'll be fine. The cordless PEX crimpers are time savers too.
Plumbing is easy, especially with PEX! You'll get the hang of the Ditch Witch quickly, and get the job done. A weekend of work is worth saving $8K in my book! Time your time and do your research ahead of time, and it'll be fine. The cordless PEX crimpers are time savers too.
Posted on 3/29/23 at 10:04 pm to Turnblad85
Thanks. My local plumbing supply told me to upgrade my 3/4" PVC to 1" PEX. They are experienced plumbers and told me that 3/4" is only to be used up to 400'.
I'm going with Rehau PEX A as recommended by the County Water Department.
Appreciate the tip to use red brass valves.
As soon as the new line enters the basement wall it will go straight up the wall and I am installing an access panel with a manual ball valve followed by the WiFi ball valve. Then the line continues up to the drop ceiling where I will install a Watts Double Union pressure reducer sandwiched in between two more manual ball valves. So if and when the WiFi ball valve fails I can easily replace it. I wanted to have it because I am also installing plenty of leak detectors and want the ability to remotely shut off the water using my phone.
I'm going with Rehau PEX A as recommended by the County Water Department.
Appreciate the tip to use red brass valves.
As soon as the new line enters the basement wall it will go straight up the wall and I am installing an access panel with a manual ball valve followed by the WiFi ball valve. Then the line continues up to the drop ceiling where I will install a Watts Double Union pressure reducer sandwiched in between two more manual ball valves. So if and when the WiFi ball valve fails I can easily replace it. I wanted to have it because I am also installing plenty of leak detectors and want the ability to remotely shut off the water using my phone.
Posted on 3/29/23 at 10:05 pm to BayouBengalRubicon
Thanks for the tip on a cordless PEX crimper.
Posted on 3/29/23 at 10:25 pm to 98eagle
i will save you a lot of time, work, and money
dont try to find the leak, it will be every other screw connection every 10 foot or so in a bunch of different spots.
rent a trench digger, unless its short enough to dig by hand, and dig a trench 12" deep, from water meter, to the shut off valve, where it enters the house.
then run a new line for it and your done with minimal disruption to the yard, its as easy as changing the oil on your car.
dont try to find the leak, it will be every other screw connection every 10 foot or so in a bunch of different spots.
rent a trench digger, unless its short enough to dig by hand, and dig a trench 12" deep, from water meter, to the shut off valve, where it enters the house.
then run a new line for it and your done with minimal disruption to the yard, its as easy as changing the oil on your car.
This post was edited on 3/29/23 at 10:29 pm
Posted on 3/29/23 at 10:31 pm to 98eagle
I ran about 550’ of water line from the road to our residence about 10-12 years ago. My old plumber friend advised/insisted I use 1 1/2” pvc for that distance, saying volume is crucial. Wasn’t a bad job at all, and I’m no plumber. If your plumbing supply house said 1” per will be sufficient, you should probably believe him. Like I said, I’m no plumber, just something to consider.
Posted on 3/29/23 at 10:33 pm to keakar
Thanks. I wish I could run the line from the meter to the existing water line entrance and cutoff valve. Going that route would have me crossing an expansive amount of concrete driveway twice and one concrete sidewalk. The existing power line, gas line, and cable lines are all in my path underneath the concrete.
So I am going to avoid all of that and run my new line to the other side of my house. So I'll have to drill and patch the block wall and install about 65' of PEX inside plus the extra valves and regulator. I'm willing to do all that extra work and cost to avoid boring or cutting my concrete driveways and sidewalk especially with the other utilities to cross there.
So I am going to avoid all of that and run my new line to the other side of my house. So I'll have to drill and patch the block wall and install about 65' of PEX inside plus the extra valves and regulator. I'm willing to do all that extra work and cost to avoid boring or cutting my concrete driveways and sidewalk especially with the other utilities to cross there.
Posted on 3/29/23 at 10:40 pm to 9rocket
Thanks for the advice on 1-1/2". I want to go with the biggest pipe size practical. I'm going to check again and research on my own. I didn't think you could get long rolls of PEX greater than 1". I definitely don't want to have water flow issues.
The plumbers I have already got quotes from, plus the plumbing supply company, plus the County Water Department construction manager all told me to go with 1" PEX after I told them I had 550' outside and another 65' inside to where the existing branch lines start.
The plumbers I have already got quotes from, plus the plumbing supply company, plus the County Water Department construction manager all told me to go with 1" PEX after I told them I had 550' outside and another 65' inside to where the existing branch lines start.
Posted on 3/29/23 at 10:41 pm to 98eagle
quote:
tip to use red brass valves.
Just take everything I said with a grain of salt since I'm certainly not a plumber. I believe with the pex A expansion fittings you'll have the full 1" so you're gtg. I have 3/4pvc to my house that is probably 3-400 foot and notice significant pressure drop whenever different things are on. There are also some elbows in the line so I doubt that helps.
Sounds like with 8k of savings on the line you can afford to but most any tools and afford to make some mistakes here and there.
Posted on 3/29/23 at 11:03 pm to Turnblad85
Even though you're not a plumber, your advice is valuable as I now need to make sure all the valves and fittings I use outside are rated for it. One thing I am doing outside is that I will only have 3 splice points outside and they will all be inside jumbo valve boxes. If I screw up, I will see the mistake (leak) and I can redo the PEX inside the valve box.
My plan includes watching more instructional videos and practice using the PEX A expansion tool before I even work on installing the actual new line. I'll practice installing fittings and cap the line and test it under water pressure several times. That way I can hopefully learn from any mistakes.
Update:. I just watched this really good training video on connecting PEX A pipe and fittings along with demoing the cutting and expansion tools that are needed. The instructor tells you all the tips you need to make connecting PEX A easy.
Training Series: PEX A Installation
My plan includes watching more instructional videos and practice using the PEX A expansion tool before I even work on installing the actual new line. I'll practice installing fittings and cap the line and test it under water pressure several times. That way I can hopefully learn from any mistakes.
Update:. I just watched this really good training video on connecting PEX A pipe and fittings along with demoing the cutting and expansion tools that are needed. The instructor tells you all the tips you need to make connecting PEX A easy.
Training Series: PEX A Installation
This post was edited on 3/29/23 at 11:36 pm
Posted on 3/30/23 at 6:10 am to 98eagle
Expansion pex comes in rolls all the way up to 2", might only be 100' or 150'. Main thing you need to find out is of you can rent an expansion tool. That tool is several thousand dollars to buy. Fittings and pipe won't be to expensive and it's a pretty easy operation aside from that. Whoever said it earlier is correct. The ID size of the crimp pex fittings port is a size smaller, on expansion theyre true. I would check with some plumbing wholesalers near you and see if they offer rental tools, hell home depot might have them. Once you dig your line it's shouldn't be that much of a project.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 6:55 am to themicah85
Yeah, I was checking on the price of the expansion tool. It looks like you can get a Milwaukee 12V or a DeWalt 20V for about $500 or a Milwaukee 18V for about $1000 and they include 1" expanders. I definitely would prefer to rent one.
Also, I plan on using Rehau brand PEX A. It is the only PEX A that is rated up to 200 PSI that I know of. Perhaps there are others but if you do an online search all that I see is that PEX pipe is rated up to 160 PSI. All other PEX A that I see is only rated up to 160 PSI like Apollo. I have a piece of Rehau and it is stamped up to 200 PSI right on the pipe. The County Water Department said that is only brand they will use.
Also, I plan on using Rehau brand PEX A. It is the only PEX A that is rated up to 200 PSI that I know of. Perhaps there are others but if you do an online search all that I see is that PEX pipe is rated up to 160 PSI. All other PEX A that I see is only rated up to 160 PSI like Apollo. I have a piece of Rehau and it is stamped up to 200 PSI right on the pipe. The County Water Department said that is only brand they will use.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 8:01 am to 98eagle
quote:
DIY Water Line Replacement - Call Me Crazy
I’ve been considering doing this exact thing. Please post updates.
My motivation was when a guy installed a new water heater and made a connection between pex and a run of existing schedule 40 white pvc on the cold water line using a compression fixture. Of course it failed. Coburn’s supply said that you can only connect pex to cpvc but not to pvc and they had recommended the compression fixture to the guy that messed it up. I know they did, because when I went there after the failure looking for a proper connection, they recommended the same to me.
I redid the line to the water heater myself and where it connected to the pvc line that went through two floors to connect to the main under the house I used a Sioux Chief adapter to make a permanent connection.
So my present pipe dream is to do what you are doing, get rid of all of the old pvc and replace it with pex.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 8:02 am to 98eagle
Sounds like you have it under control. You say no utilities or other water lines but call anyway if you have not already. You cannot be too careful
Posted on 3/30/23 at 8:34 am to TBoy
Im learning a lot from this thread so thanks to all.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 8:59 am to MasterJSchroeder
I had already requested a utilities locate through 811. I can avoid every utility. The only thing I will likely cut that I know of is my own water line plus an abandoned water line that used to go to an RV before our house was built.
The main issues that I still haven't figured out just yet are:
1. I think the frost line is approximately 9" where we live. We're just below the 10" line. So I know the rule is to add 6 more inches so I need to try and get 15" of cover. I plan to set the depth of the ditch witch to 18". If I encounter any large roots or rocks, I need to decide what to do. I assume it is okay to just raise the depth of cover over the obstruction, go around it, or cut the root, dig out the rock, etc. I want to keep the pipe buried in straight lines as much as possible, but I would also like to maintain 15" cover. I also don't want to damage any trees. I know I'll figure it out as I go. Just didn't know if any of you had any ideas on how high/far you would skip over a large root even if you got near the frost line.
2. My 1" bore through the basement wall will be approximately 18" deep from the outside dirt. There's a chance the builder placed black fabric/tar around the foundation wall to prevent water intrusion. If so I might be drilling right through it. If that happens, I still think I will expose the pipe well and pack hydraulic cement around it outside. Didn't know if y'all had any ideas on that situation.
3. When I connect/cutover my new 1" PEX A line (inside my basement) to the existing water line, it is 3/4" PEX B. I know this is a dumb question, but I assume that they make adapters/reducers where I can convert from 1" PEX A to 3/4" PEX B. The two pipes will be at a 90 degree angle to each other. Can someone explain these adapters, ie, I would install a 90 degree elbow (PEXA) then a PEX A reducer (1" to 3/4"), then a PEX A to PEX B coupling. Can this be accomplished with less fittings? I know I'll get to the answer as I research fittings, but just thought I would ask. This also means I will have to buy or hopefully rent a PEX B crimping tool just for this one final connection.
The main issues that I still haven't figured out just yet are:
1. I think the frost line is approximately 9" where we live. We're just below the 10" line. So I know the rule is to add 6 more inches so I need to try and get 15" of cover. I plan to set the depth of the ditch witch to 18". If I encounter any large roots or rocks, I need to decide what to do. I assume it is okay to just raise the depth of cover over the obstruction, go around it, or cut the root, dig out the rock, etc. I want to keep the pipe buried in straight lines as much as possible, but I would also like to maintain 15" cover. I also don't want to damage any trees. I know I'll figure it out as I go. Just didn't know if any of you had any ideas on how high/far you would skip over a large root even if you got near the frost line.
2. My 1" bore through the basement wall will be approximately 18" deep from the outside dirt. There's a chance the builder placed black fabric/tar around the foundation wall to prevent water intrusion. If so I might be drilling right through it. If that happens, I still think I will expose the pipe well and pack hydraulic cement around it outside. Didn't know if y'all had any ideas on that situation.
3. When I connect/cutover my new 1" PEX A line (inside my basement) to the existing water line, it is 3/4" PEX B. I know this is a dumb question, but I assume that they make adapters/reducers where I can convert from 1" PEX A to 3/4" PEX B. The two pipes will be at a 90 degree angle to each other. Can someone explain these adapters, ie, I would install a 90 degree elbow (PEXA) then a PEX A reducer (1" to 3/4"), then a PEX A to PEX B coupling. Can this be accomplished with less fittings? I know I'll get to the answer as I research fittings, but just thought I would ask. This also means I will have to buy or hopefully rent a PEX B crimping tool just for this one final connection.
This post was edited on 3/30/23 at 9:00 am
Posted on 3/30/23 at 2:26 pm to 98eagle
1. I've lived in the deep south my whole life so frost line is something I've only read about. I would think you'd just go around whatever obstacle there is. If there are any trees you really care about then definitely stay a good ways away from the trunk. The "drip line" or edge of out limbs would be more than enough. Most trees though could probably handle getting their roots cut more than you'd think. I'ma guess 20' from the trunk of a large tree should be fine. And fyi, I've never used a ditch witch where there are rocks of any size. That may make it a nightmare or even impossible. I think I've seen people have to use a trackhoe where large rocks are present. That may be why some of your quote seems so high is that the plumbers are thinking of that.
2. Again I dont deal with basements. Sounds like just make sure its sealed good with something flexible that is compatible with whatever they used to seal the blocks. If there is gravel used for drainage against the basement wall, try not and mix too much dirt with it when working. One thing when drilling through block is it sometimes "blows out" the block on the other side that might make it more difficult to seal. If you have helper they can press a 2x4 against the other side when you are drilling through and it usually mitigates the blowout.
3. I think they do make pex A to B connections. You can check out supplyhouse.com and peruse all the fittings available. If nothing else, you can go from pex a male threads to a pex B elbo with female threads or something like that. I use the aforementioned site when pondering possible connections.
2. Again I dont deal with basements. Sounds like just make sure its sealed good with something flexible that is compatible with whatever they used to seal the blocks. If there is gravel used for drainage against the basement wall, try not and mix too much dirt with it when working. One thing when drilling through block is it sometimes "blows out" the block on the other side that might make it more difficult to seal. If you have helper they can press a 2x4 against the other side when you are drilling through and it usually mitigates the blowout.
3. I think they do make pex A to B connections. You can check out supplyhouse.com and peruse all the fittings available. If nothing else, you can go from pex a male threads to a pex B elbo with female threads or something like that. I use the aforementioned site when pondering possible connections.
This post was edited on 3/30/23 at 2:27 pm
Posted on 3/30/23 at 2:50 pm to Turnblad85
Thanks Turnblad85. I really appreciate all of your input. My guess is that I will have more issues with roots and not many issues with rocks. I expect the ditch witch will just cut through finger sized roots. Also assume I'll instantly know if I hit a large root or rock and then I'll quickly figure out what is the best solution for it. I appreciate the website for supplies and also the tip for using a 2x4 to avoid a blowout on the block wall.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 3:44 pm to 98eagle
I think you got this...you have planned and researched all you can, sounds like you have a great plan, as with any project you will run into some obstacles but you sound like you have the mechanical knowledge to figure it out. Also the good news is that with your plan you do not have to disconnect the household water and you wont be without
good luck and report back with the completed project summary
good luck and report back with the completed project summary
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