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3
Posted on 1/22/17 at 8:23 am to BulldogXero
quote:
The Jedi aspect is what killed SWG.
Sony destroyed SWG when they took it over.
Posted on 1/22/17 at 8:53 am to BulldogXero
quote:The game was what you made of it. While I agree it was short on structured content, the flexibility of the game was epic. Examples of people that I knew:
SWG pre-NGE really wasn't all that great -- at least initially. Practically the only content was running to a terminal then running for days to a monster den, blowing it up, then coming back.
- Dancers - I new a Bothan who liked to dance. He would wear a blue speedo and hang out in the cantina all night long just to socialize.
- Merchants - I ran a marketing company that spanned the galaxy. Our power rivaled the largest Imperial or Rebel guilds. I never crafted our products, I bought them from craftsmen and re-sold for a profit.
- Chefs - I had a friend who RP'd a bartender. He kept us drunk. He was also the CEO of our marketing company for a bit.
- Wookiee slave trading - Need I say more?
But I agree the game was lacking in pre-planned content. That's what made it so good. We had a sandbox to play in, and you could be whatever you wanted to be.
This post was edited on 1/22/17 at 8:55 am
Posted on 1/22/17 at 9:17 am to BulldogXero
quote:Damn, I miss Holocron.
Don't take my word for it. Take the word of the man who designed the game
Posted on 1/22/17 at 12:54 pm to BulldogXero
quote:
Don't take my word for it. Take the word of the man who designed the game
I think he is talking about the Village in that though right? Jedi didn't kill the game, the addition and straight path to Jedi hurt it, WoW killed it.
I remember unlocking Jedi and starting my next character as a Swordsman/Doctor that could solo literally anything in the game. My jedi hit saber mastery and then the shenanigans began. Me and my guild mate would go into a star port and force meditate and prepare for the onslaught of people wanting to get the kill. We would fight off about 100 people trying to kill us because it would immediately tag you to all. I remember taking my jedi into the Bunker to help with the Mandalorian Armor.
The community is what made this game special and why it still stays special to so many people that played it early on. I liked the fact that you had one character and if you wanted to go from dancer/musician to TKA to armor smith you could. It made you be more patient and grind it out. Literally every role had a role to play in the galaxy.
Kettemoor for life.
Posted on 1/22/17 at 1:01 pm to Warfarer
quote:
The community is what made this game special and why it still stays special to so many people that played it early on.
I agree with this. I played with a lot of peeps from that game on into LOTRO, SWTOR, and so on. Still chat with them on a regular basis online while working on something else. So many good peeps from around the world and what made the community great.
Sony decided to make the game easy for people when the NGE came online.
Posted on 1/22/17 at 6:51 pm to jefforize
I jumped on Runescape out of curiosity about a year ago 
Still had my main account. But got banned for botting after an hour
It's like 10000x bigger than it was the last time I played.
No castle wars no care
Still had my main account. But got banned for botting after an hour
It's like 10000x bigger than it was the last time I played.
No castle wars no care
Posted on 1/22/17 at 7:28 pm to TideWarrior
I only crafted in SWG. I was the first to dual master weaponsmith and armorsmith on Intrepid.
You really could play the game and never complete a quest or kill a mob if you chose to do so. Only game like that I've ever seen.
You really could play the game and never complete a quest or kill a mob if you chose to do so. Only game like that I've ever seen.
This post was edited on 1/22/17 at 7:29 pm
Posted on 1/22/17 at 7:30 pm to Warfarer
The combat restructuring (NGE) killed SWG. It turned into a completely different game. The removal of item deterioration killed crafting.
Posted on 1/22/17 at 7:36 pm to VABuckeye
Daoc also put a premium on crafters. Specifically armorsmiths
People could just sit in the capital cities and make crazy amounts of plat.
It was a grind so top tier smiths were always in high high demand.
Smiths had the capability of crafting 100% quality gear, which sadly was RNG ... but if they got lucky then they would get huge tips.
Back in the old days of MMOS, like yall know from swg and eq, reputation counted for a lot. You couldn't just stiff people..you'd get blacklisted and that meant ud have to start over at level 1 basically..a death sentence in MMOs
People could just sit in the capital cities and make crazy amounts of plat.
It was a grind so top tier smiths were always in high high demand.
Smiths had the capability of crafting 100% quality gear, which sadly was RNG ... but if they got lucky then they would get huge tips.
Back in the old days of MMOS, like yall know from swg and eq, reputation counted for a lot. You couldn't just stiff people..you'd get blacklisted and that meant ud have to start over at level 1 basically..a death sentence in MMOs
This post was edited on 1/22/17 at 7:37 pm
Posted on 1/22/17 at 7:44 pm to SmoothOperator96
It's amazing to me that runescape is still popular.
For a game that old to have such a big following still, they must be doing a lot of good things
For a game that old to have such a big following still, they must be doing a lot of good things
Posted on 1/22/17 at 8:06 pm to Drewbie
quote:
Now my current obsession, WoW.
I just resubbed to WoW last week, right when classes started. I may have made a mistake
Posted on 1/22/17 at 8:07 pm to SmoothOperator96
Meridian 59 - before all the others their was this game. First 3D graphical mmo. You could kill anybody and take their stuff except in a few safe areas. It's so hard to describe this game but one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. Biggest issue was lag. Pkillers, stealing guild halls, red skies, etc.. so much fun and mayhem.
Ultima online - lots of area to explore. Crafting. Was fun for a while.
Everquest - was there from beta. Think I was level 20 by end of day 1. Remember leading one of the first raids for the lady ice dragon. Remember taking 40 to 50 people and falling through trap floor and getting everybody killed. Guilds would camp bosses and raid whenever they popped even if 3 am. Farming plane of hate for 0.001 % drop rate on shaman armor. Sitting for hours farming that haste sash from the frogman for friends. Definitely best early pve game.
Vanguard - I actually liked this game but population was so low that it was hard to get into it very much.
Dark age - played this for a while. Fun pvp but the lag early on drove me away. Large scale battles would be so choppy. Small group action was fun though.
LOTRO - played for a while and was enjoyable early on. Player vs monster in ettenmoors was fun for a while. Had some of the best 1 vs 1 pvp fights in any game there.
Life prevented me from playing mmos like I once did. Now stick to consoles that I can play for short periods of time.
Ultima online - lots of area to explore. Crafting. Was fun for a while.
Everquest - was there from beta. Think I was level 20 by end of day 1. Remember leading one of the first raids for the lady ice dragon. Remember taking 40 to 50 people and falling through trap floor and getting everybody killed. Guilds would camp bosses and raid whenever they popped even if 3 am. Farming plane of hate for 0.001 % drop rate on shaman armor. Sitting for hours farming that haste sash from the frogman for friends. Definitely best early pve game.
Vanguard - I actually liked this game but population was so low that it was hard to get into it very much.
Dark age - played this for a while. Fun pvp but the lag early on drove me away. Large scale battles would be so choppy. Small group action was fun though.
LOTRO - played for a while and was enjoyable early on. Player vs monster in ettenmoors was fun for a while. Had some of the best 1 vs 1 pvp fights in any game there.
Life prevented me from playing mmos like I once did. Now stick to consoles that I can play for short periods of time.
This post was edited on 1/22/17 at 8:14 pm
Posted on 1/22/17 at 8:49 pm to VABuckeye
quote:
I only crafted in SWG. I was the first to dual master weaponsmith and armorsmith on Intrepid.
I spent many a hour going to merchants to get the gear I needed especially for my ship. I spent over a year just in space never setting foot on a planet just to get into deep space for the PvP.
I also remember people having the in game weddings.
Posted on 1/22/17 at 8:52 pm to GambitAUfan
quote:
LOTRO - played for a while and was enjoyable early on. Player vs monster in ettenmoors was fun for a while. Had some of the best 1 vs 1 pvp fights in any game there.
I beta tested the game and bought the lifetime membership. So still from time to time logon to see the new content since it is free for me. I enjoyed the PvP early on but not been in the Moors or the new area in over 4 years. I was 3rd on my server to reach r9 on my freep and that was long before the big expansion of Moria came out.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 5:09 pm to DoUrden
This post is going to take a while lol!
The Original Neverwinter Nights on AOL - This was the game I broke my MMO cherry on waaay back in 1996 just prior to AOL going to a per-month fee for internet access. It was a 2D, 8-bit graphics, turn-based game that was more text than graphics. At this time in MMOs the vast majority of players had been fans of pen & paper D&D at some point so RP'ing was pretty big.
--PVP was a chess game in that you had to decide what spells to have ready (some had the same graphics and messages as others) and when to use them.
--People that tried ganking you in PVP areas were referred to as "jumpers" because they would come into the combat screen once some computer-controlled encounter began.
--AOL had stopped updating the game so bugs weren't fixed. One fun one was "necro'ing" people that came into your combat cloud. You could have a max of 6 players in combat and if one died and someone else jumped into the combat to take their place you could cast on the other player's corpse and the new player would take the effect.
--The only time you saw your character was in combat or if you were changing their gear/colors.
Meridian 59 - As I forayed out into the wider internet world I happened on Meridian 59. I don't think I ever figured out how to leave the newbie area
The Realm Online - As NWN was shuttered (to make way for AOL's games that weren't covered by the flat monthly fee) most of my guild went to The Realms. It was another 2D job, but with far better graphics and lots of customization. You could create names for pretty much anything (I would buy jugs of alcohol and name them Bardweiser then hand them out to random folks).
--At the time the game had an unlimited ceiling on levels. This would play a big role in PVP.
--This was my first gaming experience where your character could have their own home.
--Combat clouds in this game were visualized from the outside by literal combat clouds...
This game is still running. [link=(www.realmserver.com)]LINK[/link]
Ultima Online - Another game my guild had a large presence in post-NWN. I played for a bit, but it was mainly a hold-over for this new game coming up called EverQuest that was supposed to be insanely good.
--The game was fun but I started a bit behind the curve of power-players and never could catch up, especially since this was around the time PK'ing was becoming an art form thus any newbie like myself was going to die not long after leaving the safety of town. A high0end guildmate had a foot locker he kept the skulls of PK'rs he encountered.
--The game was very deep with how far your could take crafting or what sorts of activities you could engage in. I went into a tavern one night and another player challenged me to a game of chess, so we spent all night playing chess within UO
Everquest - This was the big mack-daddy of MMO's for North America. It wasn't the first but due to its timing it quickly became the most widely played and thus taught people a lot of lessons about themselves. People got divorced because of the game, people got married because of the game, at least one guy committed suicide, people learned the fine art of hacking game files so they could set up mapping tools, see what new content was coming, exploit various mechanics the devs hadn't thought through, people were busted having cyber sex, people were busted having cyber sex with someone they only thought was a female, and on and on.
--The game itself was a huge fricking time-sink. Aside from the first handful of levels, it took most players months to reach just mid-game. IIRC the first level 50 didn't happen until at least 6 months after release. This was due to the ever-expanding amount of experience one needed to get to the next level and how lower-level content would quickly offer NO experience.
--The death penalty likewise became more harsh as one leveled. Because of this it wasn't uncommon to see people run for the zone line rather than die. This in turn created interesting issues in certain zones...
Anarchy Online - At some point I ventured from the medieval fantasy genre and went futuristic with AO. The game was fun and had its quirks (I also had a high-level friend who decked me out with awesome gear), but eventually I drifted back to EQ and all my old gaming friends. Eventually we would all leave EQ for other pursuits.
EQ2 - This was supposed to be the updated "EQ of the future". It had a much more entertaining and robust crafting system, far superior graphics and it had voice-overs (which added a whole new depth to the game). Unlike the original you had actual facial customization (which I am a big fan of) but in the end it still came down to hack-n-slash with a little more "bring me x amount of y pelts".
City of Heroes - Once again I became disenchanted with the EQ franchise so this time I ventured into the superhero genre with City of Heroes.
--Being a big fan of character customization, this game hit the right spot with me. I (as well as many others) could (and did) spend hours in the character customization system. Capes, lightning sparking from eyes, glowing hands, changeable colors on ever costume piece... it was great!
--The storylines were fun and interactive for their time.
--The powersets were fun and all had their pros and cons. Playing a "Super Strength" character really had that super-strength feel, moreso than any other game of the genre.
--Bases could be as unique as you could imagine.
--The new content was usually really fun and the graphics were always top-notch.
--Base costs were far more than an average player could afford and the game lacked any real endgame content other than chasing badges and mods. Ultimately the latter is what caused me to drift away from the game.
Champions Online - The game was a lot of fun in the beginning levels, especially with all the Easter Eggs. Eventually though it suffered from being too deep. Anyone could access any power so instead of knowing a lot about a few things you felt like you only knew a little about a lot of things and that ended up getting you killed. A lot.
Star Trek Online- This was before it became a huge cash grab. The worlds you explored were amazingly devoid of life other than the enemies you were sent to defeat. The space battles though... putting it on a large television with surround sound looked and felt like a movie. Still, that wasn't enough to keep my attention for long.
The Original Neverwinter Nights on AOL - This was the game I broke my MMO cherry on waaay back in 1996 just prior to AOL going to a per-month fee for internet access. It was a 2D, 8-bit graphics, turn-based game that was more text than graphics. At this time in MMOs the vast majority of players had been fans of pen & paper D&D at some point so RP'ing was pretty big.
--PVP was a chess game in that you had to decide what spells to have ready (some had the same graphics and messages as others) and when to use them.
--People that tried ganking you in PVP areas were referred to as "jumpers" because they would come into the combat screen once some computer-controlled encounter began.
--AOL had stopped updating the game so bugs weren't fixed. One fun one was "necro'ing" people that came into your combat cloud. You could have a max of 6 players in combat and if one died and someone else jumped into the combat to take their place you could cast on the other player's corpse and the new player would take the effect.
--The only time you saw your character was in combat or if you were changing their gear/colors.
Meridian 59 - As I forayed out into the wider internet world I happened on Meridian 59. I don't think I ever figured out how to leave the newbie area
The Realm Online - As NWN was shuttered (to make way for AOL's games that weren't covered by the flat monthly fee) most of my guild went to The Realms. It was another 2D job, but with far better graphics and lots of customization. You could create names for pretty much anything (I would buy jugs of alcohol and name them Bardweiser then hand them out to random folks).
--At the time the game had an unlimited ceiling on levels. This would play a big role in PVP.
--This was my first gaming experience where your character could have their own home.
--Combat clouds in this game were visualized from the outside by literal combat clouds...
This game is still running. [link=(www.realmserver.com)]LINK[/link]
Ultima Online - Another game my guild had a large presence in post-NWN. I played for a bit, but it was mainly a hold-over for this new game coming up called EverQuest that was supposed to be insanely good.
--The game was fun but I started a bit behind the curve of power-players and never could catch up, especially since this was around the time PK'ing was becoming an art form thus any newbie like myself was going to die not long after leaving the safety of town. A high0end guildmate had a foot locker he kept the skulls of PK'rs he encountered.
--The game was very deep with how far your could take crafting or what sorts of activities you could engage in. I went into a tavern one night and another player challenged me to a game of chess, so we spent all night playing chess within UO
Everquest - This was the big mack-daddy of MMO's for North America. It wasn't the first but due to its timing it quickly became the most widely played and thus taught people a lot of lessons about themselves. People got divorced because of the game, people got married because of the game, at least one guy committed suicide, people learned the fine art of hacking game files so they could set up mapping tools, see what new content was coming, exploit various mechanics the devs hadn't thought through, people were busted having cyber sex, people were busted having cyber sex with someone they only thought was a female, and on and on.
--The game itself was a huge fricking time-sink. Aside from the first handful of levels, it took most players months to reach just mid-game. IIRC the first level 50 didn't happen until at least 6 months after release. This was due to the ever-expanding amount of experience one needed to get to the next level and how lower-level content would quickly offer NO experience.
--The death penalty likewise became more harsh as one leveled. Because of this it wasn't uncommon to see people run for the zone line rather than die. This in turn created interesting issues in certain zones...
Anarchy Online - At some point I ventured from the medieval fantasy genre and went futuristic with AO. The game was fun and had its quirks (I also had a high-level friend who decked me out with awesome gear), but eventually I drifted back to EQ and all my old gaming friends. Eventually we would all leave EQ for other pursuits.
EQ2 - This was supposed to be the updated "EQ of the future". It had a much more entertaining and robust crafting system, far superior graphics and it had voice-overs (which added a whole new depth to the game). Unlike the original you had actual facial customization (which I am a big fan of) but in the end it still came down to hack-n-slash with a little more "bring me x amount of y pelts".
City of Heroes - Once again I became disenchanted with the EQ franchise so this time I ventured into the superhero genre with City of Heroes.
--Being a big fan of character customization, this game hit the right spot with me. I (as well as many others) could (and did) spend hours in the character customization system. Capes, lightning sparking from eyes, glowing hands, changeable colors on ever costume piece... it was great!
--The storylines were fun and interactive for their time.
--The powersets were fun and all had their pros and cons. Playing a "Super Strength" character really had that super-strength feel, moreso than any other game of the genre.
--Bases could be as unique as you could imagine.
--The new content was usually really fun and the graphics were always top-notch.
--Base costs were far more than an average player could afford and the game lacked any real endgame content other than chasing badges and mods. Ultimately the latter is what caused me to drift away from the game.
Champions Online - The game was a lot of fun in the beginning levels, especially with all the Easter Eggs. Eventually though it suffered from being too deep. Anyone could access any power so instead of knowing a lot about a few things you felt like you only knew a little about a lot of things and that ended up getting you killed. A lot.
Star Trek Online- This was before it became a huge cash grab. The worlds you explored were amazingly devoid of life other than the enemies you were sent to defeat. The space battles though... putting it on a large television with surround sound looked and felt like a movie. Still, that wasn't enough to keep my attention for long.
Posted on 1/23/17 at 5:09 pm to Bard
Vanguard - Some really great ideas (like bards creating their own songs) although some where buggy and never really worked right (like Diplomacy). Good graphics and smooth gameplay. Suffered mainly from over-saturation of the market (WoW and EQ were both really big at the time, there just wasn't enough market for another medieval MMO then).
DCUO - This is where I currently hang my hat and have since Beta. The first 30 levels are there to teach people how to play the game (many still somehow manage to make it beyond 30 and continue to have no fricking clue).
--Good graphics and lots of voice-overs
--Fast-paced combat
--Devs are very responsive on the forums (as well as Twitter, FB, etc).
--Content is fun but there's just not much of it within each DLC. The current Amazon Fury pt 3 content is stretching the play-ability out a bit but there are still gaping holes that could be filled with things like more events.
--Character customization increases as you discover more styles. So the more you play, the more style pieces you have to choose from.
--The test server is highly utilized by the devs and players for feedback. Currently they are re-working the way stats and gear work in the game as they have started seeing the effects of long-term MUD-flation.
--All weapons are pretty much balanced against each other so it's more a personal preference than anything else.
--All powersets are viable for DPS and/or their Role, but as with anything some are better than others in varying situations.
--PVP still needs to be worked on but there is still an active PVP crowd that seems to non-stop chatter on the 5v5 channel every day and night.
--I don't know if it's Daybreak or DC but they are generally pretty bad at tying in with things going on with DC in other entertainment venues. For BvS we got all sorts of posters for our bases, for the Supergirl series we got a skin of her TV outfit for Legends play (which has since been removed) but they haven't done dick with tying in Flash or Arrow nor any other movie.
Marvel Heroes - Every now and then I stray from DCUO to see what's happening across the street with Marvel. This is a Diablo-based, overhead system with pre-created characters you can gear up and assign powers and points to those powers.
--A veritable shitload of VO's for every character. Standing in Stark Towers is damned near like hearing them actually converse (Deadpool kills me!).
--Fantastic graphics. Although they don't put out much new content (they focus more on putting out new charactes to play) what they do put out is well done and really is a must for any Marvel fanboy.
--Being a part of Disney they are fan-damn-tastic at doing tie-ins with other media aspects of their properties. New Guardians movie about to open up? They'll be releasing AT LEAST a new skin for the Guardian characters in the game, but most likely they will release a mission of some sort that involves whatever baddy they are facing in the movie. Same thing for TV shows, Netflix series, etc.
DCUO - This is where I currently hang my hat and have since Beta. The first 30 levels are there to teach people how to play the game (many still somehow manage to make it beyond 30 and continue to have no fricking clue).
--Good graphics and lots of voice-overs
--Fast-paced combat
--Devs are very responsive on the forums (as well as Twitter, FB, etc).
--Content is fun but there's just not much of it within each DLC. The current Amazon Fury pt 3 content is stretching the play-ability out a bit but there are still gaping holes that could be filled with things like more events.
--Character customization increases as you discover more styles. So the more you play, the more style pieces you have to choose from.
--The test server is highly utilized by the devs and players for feedback. Currently they are re-working the way stats and gear work in the game as they have started seeing the effects of long-term MUD-flation.
--All weapons are pretty much balanced against each other so it's more a personal preference than anything else.
--All powersets are viable for DPS and/or their Role, but as with anything some are better than others in varying situations.
--PVP still needs to be worked on but there is still an active PVP crowd that seems to non-stop chatter on the 5v5 channel every day and night.
--I don't know if it's Daybreak or DC but they are generally pretty bad at tying in with things going on with DC in other entertainment venues. For BvS we got all sorts of posters for our bases, for the Supergirl series we got a skin of her TV outfit for Legends play (which has since been removed) but they haven't done dick with tying in Flash or Arrow nor any other movie.
Marvel Heroes - Every now and then I stray from DCUO to see what's happening across the street with Marvel. This is a Diablo-based, overhead system with pre-created characters you can gear up and assign powers and points to those powers.
--A veritable shitload of VO's for every character. Standing in Stark Towers is damned near like hearing them actually converse (Deadpool kills me!).
--Fantastic graphics. Although they don't put out much new content (they focus more on putting out new charactes to play) what they do put out is well done and really is a must for any Marvel fanboy.
--Being a part of Disney they are fan-damn-tastic at doing tie-ins with other media aspects of their properties. New Guardians movie about to open up? They'll be releasing AT LEAST a new skin for the Guardian characters in the game, but most likely they will release a mission of some sort that involves whatever baddy they are facing in the movie. Same thing for TV shows, Netflix series, etc.
This post was edited on 1/24/17 at 10:19 am
Posted on 1/24/17 at 1:34 am to Bard
EQ - Best mmo ever. Played on PVP server Rallos Zek(merged to Zek) where you gang a guy you take one of his items , boxed a Shaman(3800 AA) and Zerker(4500AA) with full top tier raid gear. Officer of top raid guild on Zek. my Zerker, Tankred, led the PVP kill rankings for years and was the most feared toon in game. Used to take out entire exp groups in raid gear. Stopped playing after Underfoot.
WOW - played Shaman in vanilla on PVP server. Raid geared up to Molten Core. Didn't like lame PVP instance games and quit. I used to just sit in booty Bay and kill exping alliance noob trash all day lol.
DAOC - 2nd favorite. I'm a pvp guy and really liked this. Had 2 accounts with all crafting. Shaman, Valk, sorcerer, berserker and skald. Played this in 2011 post EQ retirement, PVP was fun but population was low.
Warhammer Online - 3rd best. PVP was amazing with right amount of PVE. Had the #1 PVP Black guard on server and a full geared squig herder. Population died quick in this game causing server merges; city raiding was bugged early.
Vanguard- tried it and quit after a few months.
I've been getting the itch to play a new MMO or join an EQ progression server.... My gf won't like me if I get back on EQ!
Looking forward to Pantheon(best looking game that looks like EQ) and Camelot Unchained. What are you guys looking forward to?
WOW - played Shaman in vanilla on PVP server. Raid geared up to Molten Core. Didn't like lame PVP instance games and quit. I used to just sit in booty Bay and kill exping alliance noob trash all day lol.
DAOC - 2nd favorite. I'm a pvp guy and really liked this. Had 2 accounts with all crafting. Shaman, Valk, sorcerer, berserker and skald. Played this in 2011 post EQ retirement, PVP was fun but population was low.
Warhammer Online - 3rd best. PVP was amazing with right amount of PVE. Had the #1 PVP Black guard on server and a full geared squig herder. Population died quick in this game causing server merges; city raiding was bugged early.
Vanguard- tried it and quit after a few months.
I've been getting the itch to play a new MMO or join an EQ progression server.... My gf won't like me if I get back on EQ!
Looking forward to Pantheon(best looking game that looks like EQ) and Camelot Unchained. What are you guys looking forward to?
Posted on 1/24/17 at 9:05 am to DoUrden
ESO is awesome now with One Tamriel. Everything is scaled which makes all of the content feel worthwhile in every zone. I'm having a blast playing it this time around.
Posted on 1/24/17 at 3:01 pm to Bard
quote:
but they haven't done dick with tying in Flash or Arrow nor any other movie.
The whole Rip Hunter storyline in which you have to work with Captain Cold, Heat Wave, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, and Ray Palmer is pretty close.
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