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Started By
Message
FB's Wine Corner: Bordeaux discussion
Posted on 10/25/24 at 1:23 pm
Posted on 10/25/24 at 1:23 pm
From time to time I may do these Wine posts, because I enjoy it. They are meant to be educational, spark discussion, and provide information on Wines at various price points, from $25 affordable wines to $100 plus. If you enjoy it let me know. If not, I'm sure you will also let me know. Please post your own thoughts on the topic and some wines you enjoy. I am not a wine professional, or a sommelier or anything like that. I do not have the knowledge of many on here nor the cellars that I have seen some people post. I simply enjoy the topic, learning, and drinking.
I will start with the most famous wine region in the world and one that a lot of people misunderstand, Bordeaux.
Bordeaux is in Southwest France, separated in two by the Gironde River.
You have probably heard of "Left Bank" and "Right Bank", but this does have some general implications.
Left Bank Bordeaux wines in general will be blends that are more Cabernet Sauvignon based with Merlot also blended in. Right Bank will be more Merlot based with Cabernet blended in. (Most of them also use small quantities of Petit Verdot and Cabernet Franc as well). I say in general because there are obviously exceptions, there are some places that do Merlot heavy wines on the Left Bank and Cab heavy blends on the Right Bank, but in general, you can know you are getting more Cab on the left and more Merlot on the Right.
To some on here this will be very common knowledge, to others it may be one of those mystifying things they only passively considered.
I will start with the most famous wine region in the world and one that a lot of people misunderstand, Bordeaux.
Bordeaux is in Southwest France, separated in two by the Gironde River.
You have probably heard of "Left Bank" and "Right Bank", but this does have some general implications.
Left Bank Bordeaux wines in general will be blends that are more Cabernet Sauvignon based with Merlot also blended in. Right Bank will be more Merlot based with Cabernet blended in. (Most of them also use small quantities of Petit Verdot and Cabernet Franc as well). I say in general because there are obviously exceptions, there are some places that do Merlot heavy wines on the Left Bank and Cab heavy blends on the Right Bank, but in general, you can know you are getting more Cab on the left and more Merlot on the Right.
To some on here this will be very common knowledge, to others it may be one of those mystifying things they only passively considered.
This post was edited on 10/25/24 at 2:17 pm
6
Posted on 10/25/24 at 1:23 pm to Fun Bunch
In 1855, Napoleon III wanted the world to know just how great French Wines were, so in preparation for a World’s Fair, he had the producers come up with a classification system so people could better understand. This resulted in the “Growth” classifications for the Left Bank, with First through Fifth Growths. At the time, it was directly tied to a Chateau’s reputation and quality (in reality, the biggest, richest Chateaus favored themselves, wrote the classifications, etc.)
The First Growths are now the wines you have heard of, the big names, names like: Chateau Margaux, Mouton Rothschild, Lafitte. It gets even more complicated, with them expanding beyond this area to include the right bank and other parts of Bordeaux, as well as premiere houses like Cheval Blanc asking to not be classified.
However, these wines because of their quality and classification, go for 800-1500+.
Petrus, which has no classification and is a merlot based wine from the Right Bank in Pomerol, is among the most expensive wines on earth (behind maybe only Domaine Romanee Conti in Burgundy), with prices easily topping 5-8k.
Most Bordeaux over say $50 is meant to be bottle aged. Anything less than 8 years or so is most definitely considered “young”.
The First Growths are now the wines you have heard of, the big names, names like: Chateau Margaux, Mouton Rothschild, Lafitte. It gets even more complicated, with them expanding beyond this area to include the right bank and other parts of Bordeaux, as well as premiere houses like Cheval Blanc asking to not be classified.
However, these wines because of their quality and classification, go for 800-1500+.
Petrus, which has no classification and is a merlot based wine from the Right Bank in Pomerol, is among the most expensive wines on earth (behind maybe only Domaine Romanee Conti in Burgundy), with prices easily topping 5-8k.
Most Bordeaux over say $50 is meant to be bottle aged. Anything less than 8 years or so is most definitely considered “young”.
Posted on 10/25/24 at 1:23 pm to Fun Bunch
Now for some practical knowledge: What can I get my hands on and for how much?
You don’t have to spend a fortune to get great wine! Most of the wine I drink is in the 20-40 dollar range, and I enjoy trying to find gems that that pricepoint.
I’ll start with the daily drinking pricing, at $25-30. It is hard to find quality Bordeaux at this price point because typically much of what is quality in Bordeaux is very highly priced. However, you can still find some good ones. I am also focusing on wines you can readily get, such as at Total Wine.
$25-30 Chateau Lilian Ladouys. (available at Total Wine) A blend that is typically fairly even in Cabernet and Merlot. Because you will be buying a young wine, you will likely want to aerate or Decant this for an hour or so. For the price, this is an absolutely excellent wine. Its big and bold without being overpowering and is very smooth. It would be an excellent alternative at a much lower price point to say, Caymus.
$50-60. Chateau Haut Bages Liberal Pauillac (60-ish at Total Wine). Very well known estate and its crazy that it is at this price point. You WILL want to age it a couple of years if you’re getting a 2020 or younger. You likely want it to be 7-10 years old before opening. If you don’t have patience for that, very healthy decant (like several hours). You will be rewarded with an amazingly smooth and beautiful wine. It will likely be mostly Cabernet, like 80%. So great alternative again to some of the overpriced Napa Cabs.
$100-150. No question: Chateau Pontet Canet
They are a Fifth Growth Bordeaux, however if the classifications were re-done today, many believe they would be reclassified at First Growth. That’s how great they have been for the past 20 years, they are now considered pretty elite. They went biodynamic many years ago, invested a ton into the property. They do things like using horses instead of machines in the vineyards, handpicking everything etc. You can get a 2020 or 2019 bottle for 130-150. You definitely consider aging them 8-10 years at least. You can get your hands on a 2009 or 2010 for 250-300ish to drink now.
I don’t have much first hand experience with the First Growths like Mouton or the Cheval Blanc and Petrus’s of the world, but anyone that has please let us know.
Also, Bordeaux makes some of the best white wines (Bordeaux Blanc) and Dessert Wines (from Sauternes) on earth, another thing we can discuss if interested.
“TLDR, What part makes the Boone’s Farm”
You don’t have to spend a fortune to get great wine! Most of the wine I drink is in the 20-40 dollar range, and I enjoy trying to find gems that that pricepoint.
I’ll start with the daily drinking pricing, at $25-30. It is hard to find quality Bordeaux at this price point because typically much of what is quality in Bordeaux is very highly priced. However, you can still find some good ones. I am also focusing on wines you can readily get, such as at Total Wine.
$25-30 Chateau Lilian Ladouys. (available at Total Wine) A blend that is typically fairly even in Cabernet and Merlot. Because you will be buying a young wine, you will likely want to aerate or Decant this for an hour or so. For the price, this is an absolutely excellent wine. Its big and bold without being overpowering and is very smooth. It would be an excellent alternative at a much lower price point to say, Caymus.
$50-60. Chateau Haut Bages Liberal Pauillac (60-ish at Total Wine). Very well known estate and its crazy that it is at this price point. You WILL want to age it a couple of years if you’re getting a 2020 or younger. You likely want it to be 7-10 years old before opening. If you don’t have patience for that, very healthy decant (like several hours). You will be rewarded with an amazingly smooth and beautiful wine. It will likely be mostly Cabernet, like 80%. So great alternative again to some of the overpriced Napa Cabs.
$100-150. No question: Chateau Pontet Canet
They are a Fifth Growth Bordeaux, however if the classifications were re-done today, many believe they would be reclassified at First Growth. That’s how great they have been for the past 20 years, they are now considered pretty elite. They went biodynamic many years ago, invested a ton into the property. They do things like using horses instead of machines in the vineyards, handpicking everything etc. You can get a 2020 or 2019 bottle for 130-150. You definitely consider aging them 8-10 years at least. You can get your hands on a 2009 or 2010 for 250-300ish to drink now.
I don’t have much first hand experience with the First Growths like Mouton or the Cheval Blanc and Petrus’s of the world, but anyone that has please let us know.
Also, Bordeaux makes some of the best white wines (Bordeaux Blanc) and Dessert Wines (from Sauternes) on earth, another thing we can discuss if interested.
“TLDR, What part makes the Boone’s Farm”
This post was edited on 10/25/24 at 1:27 pm
Posted on 10/25/24 at 1:44 pm to Fun Bunch
great post
i always skip the french wines on the wine list because i have no idea what i'm looking for or what i'll get. but i do know i'm missing out on great wine experiences by doing that. it would help people like me if the varietals were listed (similar to domestic wines)
i always skip the french wines on the wine list because i have no idea what i'm looking for or what i'll get. but i do know i'm missing out on great wine experiences by doing that. it would help people like me if the varietals were listed (similar to domestic wines)
Posted on 10/25/24 at 1:53 pm to cgrand
We can do a post on that, but in general:
Bordeaux is going to be Cabernet or Merlot based. White Bordeaux are Semillon and Sauv Blanc
Sancerre and Pouilly Fume are Sauvignon Blanc
Burgundy is Pinot Noir. White Burgundy is generally Chardonnay
Chablis is Chardonnay
Beaujolais is Gamay.
Muscadet is melon
Rhone it depends on if its North or South. South is generally GSM - Grenache, Syrah, Mourvedre (if you see Cote du Rhone its this) with Grenache being primary, North is Syrah (Cote Rotie, Hermitage)
In Alsace, which has changed hands many times between France and Germany, they do list the varietals.
Bordeaux is going to be Cabernet or Merlot based. White Bordeaux are Semillon and Sauv Blanc
Sancerre and Pouilly Fume are Sauvignon Blanc
Burgundy is Pinot Noir. White Burgundy is generally Chardonnay
Chablis is Chardonnay
Beaujolais is Gamay.
Muscadet is melon
Rhone it depends on if its North or South. South is generally GSM - Grenache, Syrah, Mourvedre (if you see Cote du Rhone its this) with Grenache being primary, North is Syrah (Cote Rotie, Hermitage)
In Alsace, which has changed hands many times between France and Germany, they do list the varietals.
This post was edited on 10/25/24 at 1:59 pm
Posted on 10/25/24 at 2:14 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Bordeaux is in Southwest France,
FIFY
FYI we've been enjoying the hell out of this Pomerol available at Martin's for ~$40. It does require a few hours of breathing in order to taste right though.
Posted on 10/25/24 at 2:16 pm to Trout Bandit
shite typo. I literally had changed that after seeing I typed it and then must not have saved the change
Posted on 10/25/24 at 2:18 pm to Trout Bandit
Chateau Fayat Pomerol is excellent at 50ish, if you like Pomerol.
Posted on 10/25/24 at 3:36 pm to Fun Bunch
On it! Love em. Cheers FB!
Posted on 10/25/24 at 4:42 pm to Fun Bunch
Chateau Lynch Bages is arguably the best wine I’ve ever tasted.
Posted on 10/25/24 at 5:38 pm to Fun Bunch
Even 20+ years ago, the First Growths were too expensive for me. So I bought the second wines from them to lay down for my kids' special milestones. They were usually about $50 each. Will be opening my last 2000 Carruades de Lafite Pauillac at an engagement party for my 24 yr old son this December.
Posted on 10/25/24 at 7:31 pm to Fun Bunch
Great thread!
Posted on 10/25/24 at 8:01 pm to Fun Bunch
Outstanding information.
I can’t wait until you get to Italy.
And Burgundy. I love Pinot noir.
I can’t wait until you get to Italy.
And Burgundy. I love Pinot noir.
Posted on 10/25/24 at 9:11 pm to VABuckeye
Really not sure when I’ll get to Burgundy if ever because it’s completely batshit insane. People spend their whole careers just on Burgundy and still don’t know it all. Wild place.
I’m kicking around a few different things for Italy. I love Brunello and Sangiovese in general.
I’m def planning some stuff on that and I’m a Ribera Del Duero lover as well so definitely a Ribera/Rioja episode.
I also know a lot about white wine, probably more than Red so certainly will do some focus there.
I’m kicking around a few different things for Italy. I love Brunello and Sangiovese in general.
I’m def planning some stuff on that and I’m a Ribera Del Duero lover as well so definitely a Ribera/Rioja episode.
I also know a lot about white wine, probably more than Red so certainly will do some focus there.
Posted on 10/26/24 at 12:26 am to Fun Bunch
Yes. The great Bordeaux wines are exceptional.
Last April we took a Viking Bordeaux cruise. It lasted a week, but we never left the three waterways that make up the Bordeaux region.
A couple of days were spent on the Right Bank where we concentrated on the merlot-based wines. Highlights were an E-bike ride through the vineyards and spending the afternoon in the hill town of St. Emillion after having lunch, a wine tasting and a winery tour at a chateau just outside of Pomerol.
Another day was devoted to the cabs of the Left Bank. We rode up and down the Route de Chateau, the hall of fame of the wine world. We saw four of the five 1st Growths and walked around the grounds of Chateau Margaux. Then we toured a 3rd Growth and had dinner at another 3rd Growth.
Another day was spent in Cadillac and the Sauternes region.
The boat didn't travel far and the scenery, while pretty, was not as spectacular as on the Rhine or the Danube, but it was a wonderful vacation and I would recommend it highly, especially to wine lovers.
Last April we took a Viking Bordeaux cruise. It lasted a week, but we never left the three waterways that make up the Bordeaux region.
A couple of days were spent on the Right Bank where we concentrated on the merlot-based wines. Highlights were an E-bike ride through the vineyards and spending the afternoon in the hill town of St. Emillion after having lunch, a wine tasting and a winery tour at a chateau just outside of Pomerol.
Another day was devoted to the cabs of the Left Bank. We rode up and down the Route de Chateau, the hall of fame of the wine world. We saw four of the five 1st Growths and walked around the grounds of Chateau Margaux. Then we toured a 3rd Growth and had dinner at another 3rd Growth.
Another day was spent in Cadillac and the Sauternes region.
The boat didn't travel far and the scenery, while pretty, was not as spectacular as on the Rhine or the Danube, but it was a wonderful vacation and I would recommend it highly, especially to wine lovers.
Posted on 10/26/24 at 7:42 am to geauxpurple
That sounds incredible. Which places had the best tastings?
Posted on 10/26/24 at 12:36 pm to Fun Bunch
Lots of great ones although we didn't get to taste at the 1st Growths. We just got to walk around.
We tasted at two 3rd Growths -
Chateau Giscours where we had a tour, and
Chateau Kirwan where we had a delicious dinner.
We spent a few hours and had a tour, tasting and lunch at Chateau D'Abzac, a small, family run winery just outside of Pomerol. The owner is Mayor of the town and he is the 7th generation owner of the Chateau, his family having acquired it in the aftermath of the Napoleon era.
Excellent Sauternes tasting at Chateau Myrat.
We were on private tours most of the time. These places are not open to the general public like they are in California. .
One place that was open to the public was the cellars and tasting room of Maison Galhaud which is in the Town of St. Emillion, underground in the chalk caves.
There were others.
Great trip.
We tasted at two 3rd Growths -
Chateau Giscours where we had a tour, and
Chateau Kirwan where we had a delicious dinner.
We spent a few hours and had a tour, tasting and lunch at Chateau D'Abzac, a small, family run winery just outside of Pomerol. The owner is Mayor of the town and he is the 7th generation owner of the Chateau, his family having acquired it in the aftermath of the Napoleon era.
Excellent Sauternes tasting at Chateau Myrat.
We were on private tours most of the time. These places are not open to the general public like they are in California. .
One place that was open to the public was the cellars and tasting room of Maison Galhaud which is in the Town of St. Emillion, underground in the chalk caves.
There were others.
Great trip.
Posted on 10/27/24 at 9:08 am to geauxpurple
I’m jealous.
As a further point of information, for those that want to read a label and know of its Right or Left Bank:
Left Bank:
Medoc (and Haut Medoc)
Saint Estephe
Saint Julien
Margaux
Pauilliac
Right:
Saint Emilion
Pomerol
As a further point of information, for those that want to read a label and know of its Right or Left Bank:
Left Bank:
Medoc (and Haut Medoc)
Saint Estephe
Saint Julien
Margaux
Pauilliac
Right:
Saint Emilion
Pomerol
Posted on 10/28/24 at 5:55 pm to Fun Bunch
As a person who doesn't drink a lot of wine, doesn't know much on wine but generally enjoys wine, primarily reds, can you explain decanting for me? From what I know, it sort of aerates the wine, though I do it understand why that would be good. I have a decanter that I think I got as a wedding present and maybe used once. Would doing that to a $20 bottle be worth it, especially if I don't plan to drink the entire bottle?
Posted on 10/28/24 at 8:47 pm to Fun Bunch
The French Country Side 2017
My wife and I toured 5 of the wine regions in France in 2017. The above is a link to my blog.
In Bordeaux, we stayed at Château Grattequina in Blanquefort, in the heart of the wine region. Since my last name is Palmer, we went to Chateau Palmer. If there will another First Growth, next up on the list is supposed to be Chateau Palmer. It is located right next to first growth - Chateau Margaux. We also visited Château Prieuré Lichine, which is a good lower priced Bordeaux style wine in the mid-$50's. The second highlight was our tasting at Chateau Mouton-Rothschild, one of the most prestigious wineries in the world and certainly in Bordeaux. Their wine is amazing.
After visiting the Provence region and Lyon, we drove to Beaune in the Burgundy region. We took a bike ride and there is a great bike trail just outside of town called the “Voie des Vignes." We traveled by bike from Beaune and along the way we went to the wine villages of Pommard, Volnay, Meursault and Puligny Montrachet. We ate lunch at L'Estaminet des Meix in the town of Puligny Montrachet and it was a great find. At lunch, we enjoyed a great bottle of 2014 Puligny Montrachet Premier Cru “Les Folatieres”. It was a chardonnay from the Burgundy and was fantastic. Every wine that I have tasted from Puligny Montrachet has been fantastic. Almost all are chardonnays and are some of the best chardonnays in the world.
While we enjoyed great wine, the food was unbelievable. Our trip ended up being as much as a food tour as a wine tour, but French wines are fantastic. Also, as an aside, in my opinion, Lyon has better food and chefs that Paris.
Cheers!
My wife and I toured 5 of the wine regions in France in 2017. The above is a link to my blog.
In Bordeaux, we stayed at Château Grattequina in Blanquefort, in the heart of the wine region. Since my last name is Palmer, we went to Chateau Palmer. If there will another First Growth, next up on the list is supposed to be Chateau Palmer. It is located right next to first growth - Chateau Margaux. We also visited Château Prieuré Lichine, which is a good lower priced Bordeaux style wine in the mid-$50's. The second highlight was our tasting at Chateau Mouton-Rothschild, one of the most prestigious wineries in the world and certainly in Bordeaux. Their wine is amazing.
After visiting the Provence region and Lyon, we drove to Beaune in the Burgundy region. We took a bike ride and there is a great bike trail just outside of town called the “Voie des Vignes." We traveled by bike from Beaune and along the way we went to the wine villages of Pommard, Volnay, Meursault and Puligny Montrachet. We ate lunch at L'Estaminet des Meix in the town of Puligny Montrachet and it was a great find. At lunch, we enjoyed a great bottle of 2014 Puligny Montrachet Premier Cru “Les Folatieres”. It was a chardonnay from the Burgundy and was fantastic. Every wine that I have tasted from Puligny Montrachet has been fantastic. Almost all are chardonnays and are some of the best chardonnays in the world.
While we enjoyed great wine, the food was unbelievable. Our trip ended up being as much as a food tour as a wine tour, but French wines are fantastic. Also, as an aside, in my opinion, Lyon has better food and chefs that Paris.
Cheers!
This post was edited on 11/6/24 at 1:55 pm
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