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re: Cookbook recommendations that teach the basics and are accurate and consistent?

Posted on 6/21/18 at 2:54 pm to
Posted by StringedInstruments
Member since Oct 2013
20883 posts
Posted on 6/21/18 at 2:54 pm to
quote:

the recipe did not provide sufficient detail


I guess this is the problem then. The pasta dough recipe said "the dough will still be sticky" after 7 minutes of kneading. It was so tough and hard after five minutes of kneading that it broke off in chunks like a dry brick. The pizza dough recipe mentions nothing about it being wet. It was so sticky that you couldn't work the dough at all without it covering your hands in slathers of wet dough even if you dusted your fingers with flour.
Posted by hungryone
river parishes
Member since Sep 2010
11987 posts
Posted on 6/21/18 at 3:13 pm to
quote:

The pasta dough recipe said "the dough will still be sticky" after 7 minutes of kneading. It was so tough and hard after five minutes of kneading that it broke off in chunks like a dry brick.


Yep--it will stay dry and crumbly until you've sufficiently mixed it--"minutes" of kneading is a pretty useless measure. A pair of experienced hands will yield way more efficient kneading in 1 min than an amateur. So you basically gave up too soon. Next time, use the food processor...or if you're dead-set on hand-kneading, put the flour in a bowl and stir in the eggs and oil. Keep stirring & scraping until the mix is shaggy (ie, dry patches and wet patches). Keep stirring until the mix is mostly uniform. You will need to exert yourself significantly to mix by hand, it will not be easy. Once the flour is evenly hydrated, you can turn it onto a countertop and knead. Yes, it will be stiff. Yes, you will have to put the weight of your upper body into it, leaning from the waist to press, fold over, and press/smear some more. It is not a tender and soft thing; those old Italian grammas make it look easy because they have the craft knowledge honed over a lifetime of exactly how to manipulate the dough. They make it look easy (like good guitar players, no?)

quote:

The pizza dough recipe mentions nothing about it being wet. It was so sticky that you couldn't work the dough at all without it covering your hands in slathers of wet dough even if you dusted your fingers with flour.

Handling wet doughs is made way easier if they're cold. So mix up another batch of Stitt's dough (or try a Lahey no knead dough) and let it rest in the fridge overnight. Take the cold dough out of the fridge, quickly divide into portions and gently shape into flattish balls, then put into small plastic containers and return to fridge for an hour or two. Take it out of fridge maybe 20-30 minutes max (less if your kitchen is very warm) before you plan to use it. The warmer it is, the more finicky it will be to shape.

I've taught basic bread & pizza making to 100+ people over the last 8 years or so. Many beginning bakers give up too soon--they under estimate the amount of time and the physical work of kneading. Forget time--you knead until the dough's gluten is developed to the degree you require (less for pizza, more for pasta dough). You must make the same recipes repeatedly (like practicing chords) until the knowledge is as much muscle memory/tactile sense as it is any visual or verbal understanding.

But hey, flour is pretty cheap. So being a fledging baker is way cheaper than a beginning woodworker, LOL.
Posted by NOFOX
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2014
10128 posts
Posted on 6/21/18 at 3:25 pm to
quote:

Good books for baking include anything by Dorie Greenspan, David Lebovitz, Yotam Ottolenghi, Rose Levy Berenbaum, Mark Bittman, Carol Field, Peter Reinhart...


I'll add Ken Forkish and Chad Robertson. Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast and Tartine are excellent for bread baking.
Posted by hungryone
river parishes
Member since Sep 2010
11987 posts
Posted on 6/21/18 at 3:32 pm to
quote:

I'll add Ken Forkish and Chad Robertson. Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast and Tartine are excellent for bread baking.

Forkish has wonderfully clear and detailed mixing and shaping instructions, and I find his recipes and methodologies far easier to follow than Robertson. Yes, the Robertson/Tartine method makes a slightly tastier bread, but Forkish's low yeast/overnight bulk rise is what I use for my farmer's market production baking.
Posted by NOFOX
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2014
10128 posts
Posted on 6/21/18 at 3:59 pm to
Also for OP's pizza dough, Stitt's recipe appears to call for 2 cups AP flour, 1/2 cup whole wheat flour, and 1 1/4 cup of water. KA says a cup of AP flour weighs ~120g while a cup of water weighs ~236g. If my math is right, the recipe calls for a roughly 98% hydration.

No reason a beginner should even approach that.
Posted by hungryone
river parishes
Member since Sep 2010
11987 posts
Posted on 6/21/18 at 4:51 pm to
Check that math again...AP weight plus whole wheat weight divided by water weight is 78%. Wet but usual for pizza. Not crazy wet.
Posted by CHEDBALLZ
South Central LA
Member since Dec 2009
23243 posts
Posted on 6/21/18 at 8:47 pm to
Posted by NOFOX
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2014
10128 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 9:48 am to
quote:

Check that math again...AP weight plus whole wheat weight divided by water weight is 78%. Wet but usual for pizza. Not crazy wet.

My math is not off. I think you may be looking at the wrong recipe. OP did not post the recipe, but every source online shows Stitt calls for 1.25 cups of water for 2.5 cups of flour (2 cups AP, 0.5 cups whole wheat).

AP = 120 g/c x 2c = 240 g
WW = 113 g/c x 0.5c = 56.5 g
Total Flour = 296.5 g

Water = 236 g/c x 1.25c = 295 g

Hydration % = water(g)/flour(g) = 295/296.5 = ~99%

quote:

Basic Pizza Dough
Source: Frank Stitt's Bottega Favorita: A Southern Chef's Love Affair with Italian Food
1 1/4 cups warm water (105 F to 115 F)
1 tbsp honey
1 tbsp active dry yeast
2 cups all purpose flour
1/2 cup whole wheat flour
2 tsp. kosher salt
1/4 cup olive oil
Posted by AbitaFan08
Boston, MA
Member since Apr 2008
27902 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 9:57 am to
quote:

Joanna Gaines Biscuits: 4 cups self-rising flour plus baking powder and soda, 2 eggs, and 3 sticks of butter? That's a damn muffin!



Couldn't disagree with you more. We did this recipe last month and they were some insanely tasty biscuits.
Posted by hungryone
river parishes
Member since Sep 2010
11987 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 10:51 am to
Okay, your math isn’t off...but the OP referenced his Southern Table cookbook, and the recipe that’s all over the web is from the Bottega book. So without the actual recipe, it’s a moot point. In any event, wet doughs aren’t hard per se, they just require a light hand, some flour, and not assuming that they will look or feel like other doughs.

Back to the original question:
—Mark Bittman’s How to Cook Everything (and the How to Cook Everything Vegetarian)
—good ol’ Joy of Cooking, though some people don’t like the format. I find the instructions just enough, others find them too brief
—GOOD, vetted online recipes. Forget AllRecipes and most crap bloggers: look at Serious Eats, for starters. (I find America’s Test Kitchen stuff way too anal/persnickety & obsessed with “the one best way” to do anything....when we all know there are usually multiple brilliant ways do cook any dish.). I hate to suggest Pioneer Woman, but her recipes are tested, usually contain illustrative photos, and she covers basic, middle American food.
—the CIA textbook, The Professional Chef, which is loaded with pics, has lots of techniques, and is full of base recipes you can adapt.
—the New York Times cookbook by Amanda Hester
Posted by tigers1956
baton rouge
Member since Oct 2008
5370 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:49 am to
River roads one and two
Posted by NOFOX
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2014
10128 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:15 pm to
quote:

OP referenced his Southern Table cookbook, and the recipe that’s all over the web is from the Bottega book.


OP must have misspoke. Stitt's Southern Table is recipes from Highlands which does not serve pizza. Bottega does.

Wet doughs (90+% hydration) tend to be very difficult to handle for a beginner baker especially if they don't know in advance that it is such a high hydration dough. They do not research tricks of the trade for handling and end up adding tons of flour and essentially changing the recipe. A beginner should not be trying out recipes above 65% hydration and should probably be starting around 60% for learning purposes.
This post was edited on 6/22/18 at 12:16 pm
Posted by StringedInstruments
Member since Oct 2013
20883 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:52 pm to
I did misspeak. Pizza recipe comes from his Bottega book.

And to the person who claimed Joanna’s biscuits were tasty - that’s fine if you like them but biscuits don’t have eggs in them. The texture was completely off from any biscuit I’ve ever had.
Posted by hungryone
river parishes
Member since Sep 2010
11987 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:03 pm to
+1 on biscuits not having eggs. Scones, maybe, but not traditional southern biscuits.
Posted by northern
Member since Jan 2014
1360 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 5:44 pm to
The Complete America’s Test Kitchen
Posted by No Disrespect But
New Orleans
Member since Mar 2014
317 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 8:17 pm to
In addition to all the valuable wisdom hungryone is so generously imparting to you, you might also want to apprise yourself of the fact that wild rice is not rice.
Posted by StringedInstruments
Member since Oct 2013
20883 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 9:26 pm to
quote:

you, you might also want to apprise yourself of the fact that wild rice is not rice.


I know that. His actual recipe calls for 2.5 cups wild rice and 2.5 cups basmati rice to 1 quart of broth.
Posted by hungryone
river parishes
Member since Sep 2010
11987 posts
Posted on 6/23/18 at 4:45 am to
Sounds fine—wild rice doesn’t absorb much water, and 1.5:2 is my rice:water ratio. So 2.5 cups of rice gets 3.75 of water....with a bit extra for the wild. Is the butternut already cooked? It brings some water to the dish as well. Rice recipes can easily go sideways if you bring the water to a boil and let it boil too long before putting on a lid. You lose water that way and things can end up too dry.
Posted by TigerGrl73
Nola
Member since Jan 2004
21467 posts
Posted on 6/23/18 at 8:54 am to
quote:

New York Times cookbook by Amanda Hester


I don't have the cookbook, but I do subscribe to their site because I find their recipes are reliable. I also like Bittman. I have the How to Cook Everything Vegetarian app on an old iPhone somewhere that I should probably look at again.

As for the Joanna Gaines book, I've read some bad reviews about her recipes. Always always always read the reviews. Same for online recipes.
Posted by caddysdad
Member since Oct 2015
275 posts
Posted on 6/25/18 at 8:07 am to
Cookwise by Shirley Corriher. Another good breakdown of why's.
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