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re: For those who are pro choice: At what point do you feel a fetus becomes a human being?
Posted on 5/17/19 at 2:54 pm to onmymedicalgrind
Posted on 5/17/19 at 2:54 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Hence, from my perspective, while it's probably technically true to consider the fertilization "conception", I tend to take the view that conception occurs when it implants.
That’s quite arbitrary.
Not really. It's the first point at which it actually has a substantial chance of developing fully.
But, that isn't really my point anyway. My point, as I've articulated elsewhere is that I don't work from the start. I work from the end. I know when we can't kill it. No one can tell me, working back, when the magical mystical moment occurred when we can
0
Posted on 5/17/19 at 2:55 pm to BamaAtl
quote:Says the person who created a whole thread and then couldn't even keep her logic internally consistent with the OP
That's pretty convenient. And pretty stupid.
Posted on 5/17/19 at 2:58 pm to ShortyRob
BamaAtl is in every abortion thread on this board. I don't understand her fetish for murdering babies en masse.
Posted on 5/17/19 at 2:58 pm to upgrayedd
quote:Well, she grew up in a culture where abortion was considered birth control.
BamaAtl is in every abortion thread on this board. I don't understand her fetish for murdering babies en masse.
Posted on 5/17/19 at 6:29 pm to bfniii
OP asked for my opinion. I gave it. You're entitled to yours
Posted on 5/17/19 at 6:49 pm to bfniii
quote:
no, it is a human at the moment of conception.
This is just flat out wrong.
Posted on 5/17/19 at 6:50 pm to cahoots
quote:
Are you saying that's wrong now?
noPosted on 5/17/19 at 6:51 pm to mmcgrath
quote:instead of your stupid remark, how about you tell me how what i said is wrong.
mmcgrath
good luck with that
Posted on 5/17/19 at 6:52 pm to helluvaday
quote:explain how what i said is an "opinion"
You're entitled to yours
Posted on 5/17/19 at 6:53 pm to Odysseus32
quote:the obligatory "nuh uhn." so i have to just take you at your word? i explained how it works. i'm sorry you don't understand
This is just flat out wrong
Posted on 5/17/19 at 7:17 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
Hence, from my perspective, while it's probably technically true to consider the fertilization "conception", I tend to take the view that conception occurs when it implants.
Generally how I view it too. If implantation never happens, the baby never happens. In vitro, nobody would say the fertilized egg failing to implant was an abortion. Pregnancy starts at implantation. How I see it, “conception” is the entire process from fertilization to implantation.
I won’t say that is the wrong or right view, just how I see it. As you said, there is a point everyone agrees it is a living being. Everything else is gray area.
Posted on 5/17/19 at 7:57 pm to JuiceTerry
quote:
Do hardcore anti-abortionists believe Plan B is abortion?
I am against plan b, but it isnt the same as abortion. Plan b prevents the fertilized zygote from implanting in the uterus. Thus it prevents pregnancy, but it does not prevent conception.
If plan b works the end result is the same, an individual dies. It is no more palatable to me than abortion.
Many contraceptives contain abortifacients similar to plan b which is why I am against them as well.
I am comfortable with condoms, other barrier methods, tubal ligation and vasectomy to prevent pregnancy.
Also dont like IVF.
This post was edited on 5/17/19 at 7:58 pm
Posted on 5/17/19 at 9:09 pm to bfniii
quote:
the fetus is a person at the moment of conception.
I may be wrong, but I feel you believe that conception begins when the sperm enters the egg. However, there is a lot more that needs to happen before that ever even becomes a viable pregnancy. Thus why I said you are entitled to your opinion. To me, there are far too many variables to consider "conception" as the moment when the sperm enters the egg.
Fertilization of an egg can occur as early as 3 days past ovulation. The fertilized egg then develops for several days before attempting implantation around 7 days past ovulation.
It's important to note that a fertilized egg can fail to implant or can implant in a fallopian tube or somewhere other than where it is supposed to. That's why I believe you have a difference of opinion than I do surrounding when a fetus can be considered a person.
Obviously I am making assumptions off your previous post and may be misinterpreting.
Again, I have my opinion and feel others are entitled to theirs even though they may not have the same opinion as I do
ETA: I see this has been touched on by others so I feel somewhat foolish. Oh well
This post was edited on 5/17/19 at 9:18 pm
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:18 pm to helluvaday
quote:my wife had a miscarriage. we know that the body rejected the fetus because it wasn't genetically viable. i'm not talking about those cases. i'm talking about working backwards from a healthy fetus. for those cases, there was no personhood gap between parents and offspring. once conception occurred (given viability) the fetus was a person in that it had everything necessary to develop into a sentient human being
there is a lot more that needs to happen before that ever even becomes a viable pregnancy
quote:i think you're stretching the term past it's plasticity
there are far too many variables to consider "conception" as the moment when the sperm enters the egg
quote:this seems like sophistry to me. it's pretty much impossible at that point to tell whether the fetus is genetically viable. it just hasn't developed enough. you don't even have the first appt until 10-12 weeks. that's why reasonable people in this thread have advocated for erring on the side of caution; wait until we know for sure if it genetically viable or not. if so, killing it for convenience is murder.
a fertilized egg can fail to implant or can implant in a fallopian tube or somewhere other than where it is supposed to
you're looking exclusively at the physiological which ignores the metaphysical/epigenetic aspect. that's not atypical for pro choice people. they want to get mired down in the debate over when the baby is physically developed to a vague, subjective degree
Posted on 5/17/19 at 10:48 pm to bfniii
quote:
my wife had a miscarriage
Sorry for your loss. Unfortunately, I can relate.
quote:
this seems like sophistry to me. it's pretty much impossible at that point to tell whether the fetus is genetically viable.
I disagree - a fertilized egg implanting anywhere but the uterus is not viable. The fallopian tubes for example are not capable of holding a growing embryo; thus, the fertilized egg in a tubal pregnancy cannot develop properly. I don't see how my previous statement could seem like sophistry at all.
quote:
you're looking exclusively at the physiological which ignores the metaphysical/epigenetic aspect. that's not atypical for pro choice people. they want to get mired down in the debate over when the baby is physically developed to a vague, subjective degree
Was the question not directed at those who are pro-choice though? Isn't the question when I, as a pro-choice person, feel a fetus becomes a human being?
While you may consider the metaphysical in your beliefs, I do not. I appreciate the back and forth. I'm not here to change your mind, and I doubt you will change mine.
This post was edited on 5/17/19 at 10:49 pm
Posted on 5/21/19 at 8:21 pm to helluvaday
quote:but this has nothing to do with the genetic viability of the fetus. iow, if the implantation were successful, then the overall process of mitosis could continue normally.
a fertilized egg implanting anywhere but the uterus is not viable. The fallopian tubes for example are not capable of holding a growing embryo; thus, the fertilized egg in a tubal pregnancy cannot develop properly
quote:you're saying that the time from fertilization to implantation is an acceptable time to abort but, it could be that the fetus is genetically viable and if allowed to implant, it would result in a successful birth. thus, it should not be considered acceptable to abort at that point on the basis that it's not a person. it absolutely could be provided implantation is allowed and happens successfully.
I don't see how my previous statement could seem like sophistry at all
quote:this has been answered this definitively. there is no personhood gap between parents and offspring. as for the purely biological, there isn't a definitive way to tell if the fetus is viable until AFTER implantation and sufficient time for development, which is 10-12 weeks. even so, heartbeat and brain activity can be detected before that time in most cases.
Isn't the question when I, as a pro-choice person, feel a fetus becomes a human being?
what i fail to understand is why pro choice people don't err on the side of caution. this is a potential human being we're talking about. they should be given the benefit of the doubt. not affording them that is just criminal
quote:and i explained how this is a serious limitation in worldview. to not do so sells humanity short. heck, even epigenetic considerations should cause pro life people to reconsider their positions but, no one ever accused pro lifers of being rational on the matter
While you may consider the metaphysical in your beliefs, I do not
Posted on 5/21/19 at 8:26 pm to bfniii
They're trying to run cover with linguistics/semantics on playing the lava/magma game with baby/fetus. Just check that NPR guide thread from earlier today.
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