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re: LeBron James is only responsible for 1 NBA Finals Defeat
Posted on 4/27/20 at 6:32 pm to ThePTExperience1969
Posted on 4/27/20 at 6:32 pm to ThePTExperience1969
Agreed. Teams actually practiced a lot back then and you can be assured that having Jordan practicing against them every day made them better players than they would have been if surrounded by less driven teammates. That is Jordan’s greater attribute. He is the champion that he is bc his drive increased the level of play of all of his mates. He made them all into winners.
1
Posted on 4/27/20 at 6:33 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
So basically it was up to Lebron to create a top 50 all-time NBA player, and the fact that he didn't reflects poorly on him?
He did a good job his first stint in Cleveland then choked in the Eastern Playoffs in back to back seasons to teams with lesser records
Posted on 4/27/20 at 6:35 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
LeBron was dragging damn near literal garbage into the NBA finals. Once, his first stint in Cleveland
quote:
And how many times did those other two do it?
That's not the point, I'm presenting facts to the actual situation
Posted on 4/27/20 at 6:38 pm to ThePTExperience1969
quote:
That's not what I'm saying but they created the help they ultimately received in winning titles, The Last Dance and multiple accounts over the years clearly corroborate this
What does this mean, "created the help?"
The Bulls drafted a supremely talented player in Pippen. I'm sure playing with MJ and being coached by Phil Jackson created marginal gains for him but he would've been an all-star level player regardless.
quote:
While going nowhere with the Grizzlies, his game and notoriety elevated when he played for the Lakers
Yes, but he was already an All-star talent when they got him. Any good player is going to be a better player when playing next to a great player.
I'll play though; which one of those bums on that Cavs Finals team could've been a multiple time All-star if Kobe or MJ got a hold of them? You must have an idea of a player that Lebron should've created into an All-star.
This post was edited on 4/27/20 at 6:43 pm
Posted on 4/27/20 at 6:44 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
I'm sure playing with MJ
obviously, made him into a mentally tougher player and winner, that's the entire point
quote:
Yes, but he was already an All-star talent when they got him. Any good player is going to be a better player when playing next to a great player.
Of course, that's the entire point and it made him a winner too!
quote:
which one of those bums on that Cavs Finals team could've been a multiple time All-star if Kobe or MJ got a hold of them?
IDK but I'm sure Mo Williams would've done some damage playing with Kobe and Mike, LeBron did a great job with those teams and they were dominant but wasn't mentally strong to come through in the playoffs at that time
Posted on 4/27/20 at 6:58 pm to ThePTExperience1969
quote:
IDK but I'm sure Mo Williams would've done some damage playing with Kobe and Mike
Why? Mo Williams and Kobe/MJ had redundant skills. Which PGs averaged Mo Williams's numbers with either of those guys?
In any event, actually Pippen and Pau Gasol's best years statistically were when they weren't on the team with MJ and Kobe, respectively. Doesn't look like they needed him to be great. If Mo Williams was so good his numbers should've gone up without Lebron, not down.
So actually it looks like Mo Williams was more of a beneficiary from playing next to Lebron than either Pippen/Gasol were from playing next to MJ/Kobe. Mo Williams' best season was playing with Lebron. Lebron's the only one that actually did this magical thing that you said MJ/Kobe did.
This post was edited on 4/27/20 at 7:01 pm
Posted on 4/27/20 at 7:10 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
Why? Mo Williams and Kobe/MJ had redundant skills. Which PGs averaged Mo Williams's numbers with either of those guys?
reading comprehension, bro. The point was, like Kobe/MJ, LeBron did a great job his first Cleveland stint with underwhelming talent and made them into winners and Mo Williams an all-star. That's the effect Kobe/MJ had on their teammates by pushing them as hard as they did. quote:
In any event, actually Pippen and Pau Gasol's best years statistically were when they weren't on the team with MJ and Kobe, respectively. Doesn't look like they needed him to be great.
They turned players like those into winners and pushed them to play winning basketball, Pippen and Gasol were great talents or they wouldn't have been drafted as high as they were but Kobe/MJ pushed them in a way that compelled them to channel their talents to championship basketball and they became substantive teammates for championship teams.
quote:
If Mo Williams was so good his numbers should've gone up without Lebron, not down.
Compared to Kobe/MJ, LeBron was not as mentally strong ultimately and choked twice in back to back Eastern Playoffs against teams with lesser records so that ultimate outcome for Mo makes sense.
quote:
So actually it looks like Mo Williams was more of a beneficiary from playing next to Lebron than either Pippen/Gasol were from playing next to MJ/Kobe.
That's never been the argument and I already conceded LeBron did a great job improving that team along with Mike Brown his first Cavs stint so redundant there.
Posted on 4/27/20 at 7:55 pm to PhillyFan1994
2011 is enough on its own to keep him behind Jordan
The Heat had 3 of the best 4 players in that series and lost.
He’s #2. Nothing wrong with that.
The Heat had 3 of the best 4 players in that series and lost.
He’s #2. Nothing wrong with that.
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:10 pm to PhillyFan1994
You must really be upset that Lebron has already played 2 more seasons than MJ and has 3 less rings. Lebron also didn't "sit out" 2 seasons in his prime. Lebron also played in the worst conference in the history of professional sports leagues (East during that time). MJ also did not have to go team up with 2 other All-Pro players to win.
The sad part is Lebron is great. He is amazing. He is an all time great but he does not deserve to be in the conversation with MJ.
The sad part is Lebron is great. He is amazing. He is an all time great but he does not deserve to be in the conversation with MJ.
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:19 pm to PhillyFan1994
Ive said this before and I will stand by it. I have no problem at all calling Jordan the Goat.
But the level that Lebron played at in the finals the first 2 years vs the Warriors is higher than any other NBA player ever. There is a lot you can knock against him and his status as the GOAT. But those 2 finals were 100% GOAT status.
But the level that Lebron played at in the finals the first 2 years vs the Warriors is higher than any other NBA player ever. There is a lot you can knock against him and his status as the GOAT. But those 2 finals were 100% GOAT status.
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:24 pm to NawlinsTiger9
While James could have played better in 2011, that series mainly came down to coaching.
Carlisle straight up destroyed Spoelstra’s arse.
That series also demonstrated the flaw of the team’s construction. Wade was absolutely the worst pairing of a player with James. Wade was an inferior version of James that didn’t spread the floor.
So two main things happened in that series:
1. Carlisle played a zone and sagged everyone into the paint. They had Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, and Dirk’s big arse clogging up the lane anytime James got the ball. Dirk did Dirk things and played great.
2. Since Wade was not a floor spacer at all this forced the Heat to use James as the floor spacer. This basically destroyed the game plan and little chemistry the team had in its first season. James and Bosh in later years dramatically improved their 3 pt shooting and then Ray Allen was added. Ultimately the fact Wade’s skill set clashed with James prevented that amount of talent from being more successful.
Carlisle straight up destroyed Spoelstra’s arse.
That series also demonstrated the flaw of the team’s construction. Wade was absolutely the worst pairing of a player with James. Wade was an inferior version of James that didn’t spread the floor.
So two main things happened in that series:
1. Carlisle played a zone and sagged everyone into the paint. They had Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, and Dirk’s big arse clogging up the lane anytime James got the ball. Dirk did Dirk things and played great.
2. Since Wade was not a floor spacer at all this forced the Heat to use James as the floor spacer. This basically destroyed the game plan and little chemistry the team had in its first season. James and Bosh in later years dramatically improved their 3 pt shooting and then Ray Allen was added. Ultimately the fact Wade’s skill set clashed with James prevented that amount of talent from being more successful.
This post was edited on 4/27/20 at 8:27 pm
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:29 pm to Rep520
quote:I'll never subscribe to this. Dirk was superhuman in the 2011 playoffs. You don't just run through Lillard, Kobe/Gasol, Harden/Westbrook/KD, LeBron/Wade/Bosh without playing elite basketball.
The Heat should have won in 2011
That team of vets wasn't getting stopped that year. They played beautiful team basketball anchored by one of the best PGs of all time with a star scorer playing at the absolute top of his game and Miami had no answer through sheer individual talent. What's even scarier is Dallas had Caron Butler on the roster but he was out with an injury.
This post was edited on 4/27/20 at 8:33 pm
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:46 pm to dcrews
quote:
Given help, Jordan did what he did.
But I read in the episode 1 thread of the documentary on Jordan that Pippen was the most over rated player of all time? So what is it? You LeBron fans can never keep your narratives in line.
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:46 pm to Boomshockalocka
I get so sick of the myth that Jordan dragged average or worse teams to championships while Lebron supposedly chokes even with help. The Bulls won 57 games in '93 and then won their 3rd championship. Jordan retires just a few weeks before the season starts in '94, so they basically carry the same roster minus Jordan. They win 55 games without him and lose a tough series to the Knicks that the addition of even one average scorer to the team could've swung the series to the Bulls.
The Cavs won 61 games in James last year in his first stint. Lebron heads to South Beach and they win 19 the next year.
The Cavs won 61 games in James last year in his first stint. Lebron heads to South Beach and they win 19 the next year.
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:48 pm to Drewbie
Saying the Heat “should” have won is disingenuous, I agree.
That Dallas team was a true balanced team of smart vets that could play defense and hit 3s. They were worthy champions.
Colonel, you’re right about the coaching mismatch. All that being said, every game was close except for game 6, and the Heat were only minutes away from taking a 2-0 lead. If Lebron plays better throughout the series, they win.
A lot of that had to with Dallas, but he was either the first or second best player in the world at that juncture - him putting up single digit points in a Finals game that came down to the wire was a huge deal.
That Dallas team was a true balanced team of smart vets that could play defense and hit 3s. They were worthy champions.
Colonel, you’re right about the coaching mismatch. All that being said, every game was close except for game 6, and the Heat were only minutes away from taking a 2-0 lead. If Lebron plays better throughout the series, they win.
A lot of that had to with Dallas, but he was either the first or second best player in the world at that juncture - him putting up single digit points in a Finals game that came down to the wire was a huge deal.
This post was edited on 4/27/20 at 8:49 pm
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:51 pm to hg
quote:
This Jordan documentary really has you LeBron fanboys on edge.
WestCoastFag has melted for weeks
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:52 pm to QJenk
quote:
But the level that Lebron played at in the finals the first 2 years vs the Warriors is higher than any other NBA player ever. There is a lot you can knock against him and his status as the GOAT. But those 2 finals were 100% GOAT status.
See, this is the thing. I think LeBron in 2011 was a worse Finals than MJ ever had (although MJ's 96 Finals was pretty meh).
LeBron's 2016 Finals was a bigger achievement than MJ ever had. His first 3 Finals vs the Warriors are on par with MJ's best (92-93) on an individual level. His 4th is good, but probably not as historically great.
Posted on 4/27/20 at 8:57 pm to Tangineck
quote:
The Cavs won 61 games in James last year in his first stint. Lebron heads to South Beach and they win 19 the next year.
The Heat also dropped to 37 wins and out of the playoffs when LeBron left.
When LeBron left Cleveland a second time, they went from the Finals to the bottom of the league.
It's just not a one sided argument.
Posted on 4/27/20 at 9:08 pm to QJenk
quote:
Ive said this before and I will stand by it. I have no problem at all calling Jordan the Goat.
But the level that Lebron played at in the finals the first 2 years vs the Warriors is higher than any other NBA player ever. There is a lot you can knock against him and his status as the GOAT. But those 2 finals were 100% GOAT status.
I don't have a problem with MJ being called the GOAT. He has a case, I just don't agree with it.
I don't count rings because if we do that Russell's the GOAT, and I don't think he is. My argument for Lebron as the GOAT is that he hit higher heights than MJ (and admittedly he had lower lows when it comes to the Finals losses). Being on an all-time great team is one thing, but beating one is far more impressive.
6 championships without a loss in the championships is impressive no matter how you slice it, but who did he beat? People say that MJ held those teams down and he's the reason why they don't have championships, but we had access to the sports equivalent of an alternate universe when MJ retired in the middle of his prime. What did the Blazers, Knicks, Jazz, and Sonics do when he was retired? Nothing.
Those just weren't championship-caliber teams that he beat. They just happened to be there to be beaten. Could he have beat the quality of team as a San Antonio or Golden State? Maybe but we'll never know, and Lebron actually did. Portland, Phoenix, Seattle and Utah were not on the level of those teams Lebron beat. If they were they would've won when MJ was gone.
This post was edited on 4/27/20 at 9:10 pm
Posted on 4/27/20 at 9:21 pm to QJenk
quote:
But the level that Lebron played at in the finals the first 2 years vs the Warriors is higher than any other NBA player ever.
Did a good job in 2016, 2015 more murky than you're admitting
quote:
There is a lot you can knock against him and his status as the GOAT.
Dude's not even top 2
quote:
But those 2 finals were 100% GOAT status.
Jordan's 93 Finals
Kareem's 80 Finals
Hakeem's 95 Finals
Shaq's 3 Finals with the Lakers
Isiah's 90 Finals
Bird's 86 Finals
Magic's 87 Finals
KD's 17 Finals
Wade's 06 Finals
Walton's 77 Finals
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