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re: POBO and GM
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:04 pm to Chad504boy
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:04 pm to Chad504boy
If the shoe fits...
Tell me how many other NBA owners named a current, full time NFL executive to be the highest ranking member of their basketball franchise?
Tell me how many other NBA owners named a current, full time NFL executive to be the highest ranking member of their basketball franchise?
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:05 pm to NOSHAU
Assuming they really do a thorough, professional search, it's as safe as it gets.
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:11 pm to Chad504boy
Then go back to saints talk, no one cares.
Quit being a homer. It’s not disrespect. It’s reality.
Quit being a homer. It’s not disrespect. It’s reality.
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:13 pm to VOR
To tie in to people bringing up owner 'basketball savvy,' think of it like this: the President is essentially that savvy acting as proxy for the owner of every decision dealing with on the court performance. It is what Loomis is to the Saints. Sometimes they have additional knowledge about player personnel scouting (like Zarren) sometimes they don't.
To the extent a President doesn't have the required in-depth personnel knowledge you would have a GM under him and then various positions down the line like Dir. of Player Personnel, Dir. of Scouting, etc. Like the Saints have Loomis, Ireland, etc.
To the extent a President doesn't have the required in-depth personnel knowledge you would have a GM under him and then various positions down the line like Dir. of Player Personnel, Dir. of Scouting, etc. Like the Saints have Loomis, Ireland, etc.
This post was edited on 2/17/19 at 6:15 pm
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:17 pm to Fun Bunch
Yet you named no owners that are basketball savy. You got called out and ran like a bitch.
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:17 pm to corndeaux
ML had business responsibilities but not personnel. He was given basketball duties because of Bounty Gate and his basketball knowledge. Yes ML played college basketball.
It was not the organizational structure but Mr Benson's illnesses that allowed Dell to survive for 8 plus years.
It was not the organizational structure but Mr Benson's illnesses that allowed Dell to survive for 8 plus years.
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:19 pm to Unknown_Poster
Sure. Loomis has a career in the NFL. He is currently holding down that job full time while being team president of an NBA franchise.
If he was a career football exec, but now leading the Pels full time, ok. Not ideal, but at least he can dig in and learn about the NBA. He has experience running a pro team.
Instead, this is clearly a 2nd job for him and the person he's relying on is Dell Demps, who has proven over the last decade that he doesn't really know what he's doing.
Forget basketball savvy, that's not very business savvy. Unless the business is "we don't really care about the basketball team as long as we are in the black"
If he was a career football exec, but now leading the Pels full time, ok. Not ideal, but at least he can dig in and learn about the NBA. He has experience running a pro team.
Instead, this is clearly a 2nd job for him and the person he's relying on is Dell Demps, who has proven over the last decade that he doesn't really know what he's doing.
Forget basketball savvy, that's not very business savvy. Unless the business is "we don't really care about the basketball team as long as we are in the black"
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:22 pm to corndeaux
What I'm saying is Demps was the de facto head of operations (POBO and GM) for the Pelicans since his hire. He just didn't have the title. Not saying that was a good move, or he did a great job, it's just the reality of the situation. I believe there are other NBA teams out there that combine POBO and GM. It's not necessarily a bad thing.
And Loomis having a title in the Pelicans organization -- as far as material impact -- is not necessarily a bad thing (or as bad as people here make it out to be). His title could have been 'Woozle-Wonder-Pony' for all it mattered. He was there because Benson didn't want to deal with the day-to-day operations of the Pelicans. Loomis just handed everything over to Demps (at least initially).
The more important point is that Demps was not the right man for either/both of those jobs; not that Loomis had some nominal involvement in the team. The latter is a complete red herring to the main issue: Demps didn't deliver.
And Loomis having a title in the Pelicans organization -- as far as material impact -- is not necessarily a bad thing (or as bad as people here make it out to be). His title could have been 'Woozle-Wonder-Pony' for all it mattered. He was there because Benson didn't want to deal with the day-to-day operations of the Pelicans. Loomis just handed everything over to Demps (at least initially).
The more important point is that Demps was not the right man for either/both of those jobs; not that Loomis had some nominal involvement in the team. The latter is a complete red herring to the main issue: Demps didn't deliver.
This post was edited on 2/17/19 at 6:27 pm
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:34 pm to Unknown_Poster
Dude. I get it. Really I do.
Plenty of teams have GM/team president in one person. Nothing inherently better about separate roles. It's about who you're giving the keys to. It's about ownership being invested in the team and setting a standard of excellence.
In this case, they have failed to do those things. Letting Demps stick around with that much power is an indictment of ownership. Giving Loomis that title and then having him state he doesn't do anything is dumb. Giving Loomis that title while he's full time with the Saints is dumb.
Even if you want to be charitable to the Bensons/Loomis, they have certainly created a perception across the entire NBA that they don't particularly care about the Pels. And it didn't just happen because of Davis. It's just been blown into the spotlight
Plenty of teams have GM/team president in one person. Nothing inherently better about separate roles. It's about who you're giving the keys to. It's about ownership being invested in the team and setting a standard of excellence.
In this case, they have failed to do those things. Letting Demps stick around with that much power is an indictment of ownership. Giving Loomis that title and then having him state he doesn't do anything is dumb. Giving Loomis that title while he's full time with the Saints is dumb.
Even if you want to be charitable to the Bensons/Loomis, they have certainly created a perception across the entire NBA that they don't particularly care about the Pels. And it didn't just happen because of Davis. It's just been blown into the spotlight
This post was edited on 2/17/19 at 6:35 pm
Posted on 2/17/19 at 7:34 pm to corndeaux
If we had Michael Jordan as owner we’d be so awesome
Posted on 2/17/19 at 9:39 pm to VOR
I questioned the need for separate persons in another thread and it was left unanswered.
I don't see a need for two people.
While roles vary from team to team, POBO looks over everything from operations through the business end. From standpoint of an op decision effecting business (e.g. do we sign X player with his baggage), a POBO with a hand in eveything can better counsel ownership. I think POBOs are great for teams with more resources, so while I'd love to see Gayle increase the budget to hire a POBO, a lower revenue team like the Pelicans (with shared business team with the Saints) doesn't *need* a POBO over business. In that sense, a POBO would mostly be involved in operational decisions (scouting, development, etc) with a role largely duplicative of a GM. Instead of paying two smaller salaries to separate POBO and GM, pay a larger salary to one person, give both titles, and increase the odds of getting who you want.
I don't see a need for two people.
While roles vary from team to team, POBO looks over everything from operations through the business end. From standpoint of an op decision effecting business (e.g. do we sign X player with his baggage), a POBO with a hand in eveything can better counsel ownership. I think POBOs are great for teams with more resources, so while I'd love to see Gayle increase the budget to hire a POBO, a lower revenue team like the Pelicans (with shared business team with the Saints) doesn't *need* a POBO over business. In that sense, a POBO would mostly be involved in operational decisions (scouting, development, etc) with a role largely duplicative of a GM. Instead of paying two smaller salaries to separate POBO and GM, pay a larger salary to one person, give both titles, and increase the odds of getting who you want.
Posted on 2/18/19 at 9:13 am to corndeaux
quote:But do you get it? Loomis is a top advisor to the Bensons on all business. Whether you put the 4 letters behind his name or not, his role does not change. You are hung up on a title that doesn't matter in the business scheme Benson set up. I do agree Demps was given too much power and trust.
In this case, they have failed to do those things. Letting Demps stick around with that much power is an indictment of ownership. Giving Loomis that title and then having him state he doesn't do anything is dumb. Giving Loomis that title while he's full time with the Saints is dumb.
Posted on 2/18/19 at 10:29 am to NOSHAU
quote:
You are hung up on a title that doesn't matter in the business scheme Benson set up
lol. you are hung up on "business scheme" while Loomis has a title that directly puts him in charge of the non-business side of the team. whether that means something or not to Gayle/Tom, it certainly sends a message to everyone else inside and outside the organization.
what do you not get about this:
the set up they have gone with for years has, at a minimum, created the perception that ownership just doesn't take their pro basketball franchise seriously
if Loomis was in this role with this same exact title, but was actually doing it full time, that would be okay
This post was edited on 2/18/19 at 10:38 am
Posted on 2/18/19 at 11:05 am to corndeaux
quote:You still don't get it. He will no longer have that title now, but do you think Gayle magically stops talking to him about the business side of the team? So, I guess you are saying you would have been fine as long as "POBO" was not behind his name.
lol. you are hung up on "business scheme" while Loomis has a title that directly puts him in charge of the non-business side of the team. whether that means something or not to Gayle/Tom, it certainly sends a message to everyone else inside and outside the organization.
what do you not get about this:
the set up they have gone with for years has, at a minimum, created the perception that ownership just doesn't take their pro basketball franchise seriously
if Loomis was in this role with this same exact title, but was actually doing it full time, that would be okay
Posted on 2/18/19 at 11:07 am to NOSHAU
quote:
You still don't get it. He will no longer have that title now, but do you think Gayle magically stops talking to him about the business side of the team? So, I guess you are saying you would have been fine as long as "POBO" was not behind his name.
Yes.
Posted on 2/18/19 at 11:31 am to NOSHAU
quote:
You still don't get it.
i understand fully that loomis is acting like a proxy owner. gayle can talk to him as much as she likes in whatever role she wants to give him. doesnt mean making him the team president isn't dumb.
would be great if you even bothered to address my questions to you. but i know that's not how this works.
the best part about how inane your point is is that it looks like gayle herself has realized how dumb this structure is. so you and others are now arguing for something that ownership appears to have realized was a bad idea. bravo
quote:
I guess you are saying you would have been fine as long as "POBO" was not behind his name.
i literally wrote, which you yourself quoted, that i would be fine if he was POBO of the Pels full time.
you change his title to Pels only or restate it as president of Benson Sports Group, which is actually his job, or whatever and i'm fine. just get someone at the top of the Pels org flow chart who's only full time job is to think about the Pels.
why is that hard for you to recognize as a valid point?
This post was edited on 2/18/19 at 11:32 am
Posted on 2/18/19 at 12:53 pm to corndeaux
42 laying this out 10 days ago
LINK
LINK
quote:
these men, more so today than last year, are very much more than functionaries. They are the ownership-level figures.
The issue with the current structure is not so much one of internal function. I personally think the empire functions just fine. The issue is more a combination of:
Actual confusion externally about who is in charge
Willful ignorance externally about who is in charge
Faked ignorance externally about who is in charge
Mr. Loomis saying his basketball role was “greatly overstated”
Mr. Loomis objectively being Demps’ superior in Basketball Operations
These are issues of a very different kind, with different sources, but they all have one cure: clarity.
quote:
we see Jeanie Buss is a CEO, Magic is the President of Basketball Operations, and Tim Harris is over business operations. Rob Pelinka, the general manager, reports to Magic. NBA insiders are not confused by this, right or wrong. Examination of this structure illustrates the problem. Is Loomis more like Magic, who works with Pelinka to the extent that working with Pelinka is equivalent to working with the pair in charge? Or is Loomis more like Jeanie Buss who is more over an oversight on the big picture and major moves?
Moreover, as the larger business itself has a non-traditional structure that includes and entire NFL franchise, and Loomis is also a part of that, the fog deepens.
Right or wrong, it causes avoidable problems of varying degree, and it’s worth fixing. The organization, however, cannot just change things on a whim for a couple of reasons. The structure has to respect
NBA Norms
NFL Norms
Actual internal operations, checks, and balances
quote:
it’s not what Loomis, others on that level, or what the actual owner does or who they that is really the issue. It’s about the mismatch of expectations. A few real and a few cosmetic changes can go a long way toward making the Pelicans “unremarkable” in all the ways one wants to be unremarkable in the end.
Posted on 2/18/19 at 1:07 pm to corndeaux
Anyone who thinks Loomis having any kind of role with the Pelicans going forward is a good thing, frankly, is an idiot when it comes to the NBA.
At this point it’s not even worth explaining to the Pro-POBO Loomis crowd. They’ll never understand.
At this point it’s not even worth explaining to the Pro-POBO Loomis crowd. They’ll never understand.
Posted on 2/18/19 at 1:42 pm to ThanosIsADemocrat
quote:Loomis will have an advisory role to Gayle regardless of his title. He and Lauscha (along with Bensel to an extent) are her trusted advisors.
Anyone who thinks Loomis having any kind of role with the Pelicans going forward is a good thing, frankly, is an idiot when it comes to the NBA.
Posted on 2/18/19 at 7:09 pm to ThanosIsADemocrat
quote:
At this point it’s not even worth explaining to the Pro-POBO Loomis crowd. They’ll never understand.
Who in the frick is pro Loomis for POBO?
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