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Message
re: Collaboration to save the West's forests
Posted on 12/8/18 at 8:58 am to Rohan Gravy
Posted on 12/8/18 at 8:58 am to Rohan Gravy
quote:
And wouldn’t the logging companies bear the burden for most of the costs?
No. Not here. Most of the planting..at least what I did when young..was on federal land and the forest service bid out the prep work and most of the planting. The forest service provided the bare root stock.
*and the forest service made some money back on stumpage rates from the loggers.*
This post was edited on 12/8/18 at 9:22 am
Posted on 12/8/18 at 9:00 am to SmackoverHawg
quote:
US should take bids. US could make money off this.
They do.
This post was edited on 12/8/18 at 9:22 am
Posted on 12/8/18 at 9:19 am to RCDfan1950
Yes..there is no perfect in nature.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 9:24 am to TheHarahanian
quote:
Not saying it’s bad, but don’t pretend it’s natural.
Who said natural but you?
You want natural touch nothing and watch more acreage burn.
Reduce the under brush unnaturally and watch less acreage burn.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 9:42 am to TejasHorn
Posted on 12/8/18 at 9:43 am to Jimbeaux
quote:
Remember that a lot of forested areas contain trees that were planted for timber. They aren’t the apex species of that climate zone. Most of the pine species in south Louisiana and Mississippi would die off and be overtaken by broad leafs, bottom hardwoods and cypress if left alone for a few hundred years.
This is a good point. However with the government lands I would think it would be better to replant native trees to the area (instead of pine which probably was not native) with hardwoods being preferred. Mainly because hardwoods provide food for wildlife and pines only have cones that squirrels eat.
After the areas are thinned or clear cut, a forestry mulcher could be run under them to remove a lot of the debris. Then in a year or two controlled burns would be of great use. After a while the trees would get large enough for their canopy to kill off most of what would feed a fire.
I would also hope that the forestry service would cut some roads (fire lanes\breaks) so if a fire breaks out the firefighters can get to it quickly. Plus these fire lanes can be used to stop the controlled burns.
My property is on a 4 year burn rotation. Since that started (about 12 years ago) the abundance of wildlife is noticeably higher, and the possibility of a fire destroying it has been reduced.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 10:08 am to Dale51
quote:
Yes..there is no perfect in nature.
Or love, or mercy, D. MN is indifferent to the feeling of Man. I've got hammered hard by MN 3 times in the last 2 years. I tell my Nature loving best friend all the time, that "one can love MN...but she'll never love you back". It's you...no her...capable of validating love.
Of course, there are still pseudo-Religions/Ideologies and simple subjective personal belief/faith which espouses and may soon validate that MN is connected to the feelings/actions of Man, in mostly incomprehensible ways. That may be true; it is highly likely that if the Essence of Reality/Energy/Matter is Spiritual (Self Aware Intellect, on an infinite scale, I.e., God), then 'Feeling' and concurrent belief/action is likely THE most pertinent factor in what is probably, ultimately, a Subjective Reality. My ancestry being Druid...I'm so inclined to believe that. I know... .
Posted on 12/8/18 at 10:12 am to alphaandomega
You just have to have professionals foresters involved. The science is there. The value of the timber will pay all the bills. We best hope the timber companies make a profit. That way you create a ton of great jobs, lower the cost of importing lumber from Canada and give us a marketable commodity we can export worldwide.
These forests, to save them, and allow them to coexist with an ever increasing population, must be managed. It’s really simple. We have to take the emotion out of all of this discussion. Our forests are a tremendous asset, just like our oil and gas reserves. AND OUR FORESTS ARE RENEWABLE.
These forests, to save them, and allow them to coexist with an ever increasing population, must be managed. It’s really simple. We have to take the emotion out of all of this discussion. Our forests are a tremendous asset, just like our oil and gas reserves. AND OUR FORESTS ARE RENEWABLE.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 10:13 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
Or love, or mercy, D.
Love and mercy is part of nature.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 10:13 am to TejasHorn
Fire is natures way of dealing with problems in the Forest. Humans move into fire prone areas and cry when we have wildfires.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 10:38 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
"clear cutting"...of what. Any country boy worth his salt knows that what sprouts up after a clear cut is low growing and fire-hazard weeds and grass. Or that tinder at the bottom is necessary to start even a campfire. It takes the trees years to come back. And with a canopy, that shades (flammable tinder) grasses, it's near impossible to burn.
Your country boy must not live out west. Clear cutting solves the fire issue for a long time. Out west grass fires are not nearly the concern as forest fires. When you see a 80 foot tall lodge pole pine explode (not burn - freaking explode) you will understand.
After clear cutting there would need to be weed management practices, but that process in a limited fashion is great for forests and wildlife.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 10:56 am to Mid Iowa Tiger
quote:
Your country boy must not live out west. Clear cutting solves the fire issue for a long time. Out west grass fires are not nearly the concern as forest fires. When you see a 80 foot tall lodge pole pine explode (not burn - freaking explode) you will understand. After clear cutting there would need to be weed management practices, but that process in a limited fashion is great for forests and wildlife.
In your opinion, MI, do thos 80's "explode" because their dense proximity allows off the chart combustion in a 70mph wind? Could they be thinned, and the understory controlled-burned in proper times, so that big trees could be allowed with minimal risks? I love big trees; have hugged a bunch. I don't care if they can't love me back. Hell, Jesus didn't care that those who nailed him up, didn't love him back.
I just know there is common sense middle ground to manage those wildfires. Extremes - in any case other than 'extreme' Truth - have to come together. It's not an asteroid or super-volcano.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 11:44 am to Nguyener
quote:
When Trump said this and then said we should get advice from other countries, like Finland, with better forest management The Washington Post said he was a retarded dipshit who didn't know anything and so did every progressive on this board.
Everyone remember that?
From less than a month ago?
Hypocrisy unbounded.
Severity of this years wildfires have nothing to do with management. We have a few decades of data showing that the management has been extremely effective.
What isn't effective is suburban sprawl dramatically increasing the area of management that is necessary.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 11:53 am to Jimbeaux
quote:
Remember that a lot of forested areas contain trees that were planted for timber. They aren’t the apex species of that climate zone. Most of the pine species in south Louisiana and Mississippi would die off and be overtaken by broad leafs, bottom hardwoods and cypress if left alone for a few hundred years.
Long leaf pine would return to most of the SE US given enough time
Posted on 12/8/18 at 12:21 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Remember that a lot of forested areas contain trees that were planted for timber. They aren’t the apex species of that climate zone. Most of the pine species in south Louisiana and Mississippi would die off and be overtaken by broad leafs, bottom hardwoods and cypress if left alone for a few hundred years.
we could plant oak where the pine forests burned in the west. Oak keeps a cooler microclimate and prevents chapparal.
This post was edited on 12/8/18 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 12/8/18 at 2:47 pm to TejasHorn
One of the main reasons that so much of the USFS lands need attention is because they stopped harvesting in the early 1990s. They primarily stopped due to the spotted owl; being an endangered species.
Harvesting is a management tool. Stop harvesting means more fuel for fires.
[/img]
And if you broke out this chart by region, the West Region's lines would probably be near 0 on the x axis.
And, in case you are unaware, the feds/states own most of the forest land in the west. Private owners own most in the east.
[/img]
But most of the harvesting is done by private owners.
[/img]
And most of the tree planting takes place in the south.
[/img]
Harvesting is a management tool. Stop harvesting means more fuel for fires.
[/img]
And if you broke out this chart by region, the West Region's lines would probably be near 0 on the x axis.
And, in case you are unaware, the feds/states own most of the forest land in the west. Private owners own most in the east.
[/img]
But most of the harvesting is done by private owners.
[/img]
And most of the tree planting takes place in the south.
[/img]
Posted on 12/8/18 at 3:22 pm to nctiger71
NC TIGER,
Are you a forester? Do you have stats on the lumber imported from Canada by year? Not sure where all of our sawmills/plywood mills in the south have gone but they are a fraction of what they were in the ‘80’s. I’m sure the stats are even worse in the west.
Are you a forester? Do you have stats on the lumber imported from Canada by year? Not sure where all of our sawmills/plywood mills in the south have gone but they are a fraction of what they were in the ‘80’s. I’m sure the stats are even worse in the west.
Posted on 12/8/18 at 6:27 pm to dovehunter
I’ve had an interest in the forest products industry for quite a few years.
I just googled USFS Harvest Trends and found many reports, etc. on the subject to find those charts. I knew the western public lands harvest had decreased significantly ~ 25 years ago.
I don’t have info on lumber imports or exports but it should be available from the Department of Commerce.
A lot of mills closed in the west when the harvest decreased. The industry as a whole shrunk with the 2008 recession. The inefficient could not survive - economic Darwinism.
I just googled USFS Harvest Trends and found many reports, etc. on the subject to find those charts. I knew the western public lands harvest had decreased significantly ~ 25 years ago.
I don’t have info on lumber imports or exports but it should be available from the Department of Commerce.
A lot of mills closed in the west when the harvest decreased. The industry as a whole shrunk with the 2008 recession. The inefficient could not survive - economic Darwinism.
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