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Message

The History and SCOTUS rulings on Anchor babies.... Facts matter:
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:28 pm
This all starts from the 14th added in 1868:
The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads in part:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside."
The United States did not limit immigration in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Thus there were, by definition, no illegal immigrants and the issue of citizenship for children of those here in violation of the law was nonexistent. The 14th was added de to freed slaves not being treated as citizens.
In 1866, Senator Jacob Howard(the man behind the 14th) clearly spelled out the intent of the 14th Amendment by stating:
This WILL NOT... See that?
The SCOTUS:
Supreme Court decisions
The correct interpretation of the 14th Amendment is that an illegal alien mother is subject to the jurisdiction of her native country, as is her baby.
Over a century ago, the Supreme Court appropriately confirmed this restricted interpretation of citizenship in the so-called "Slaughter-House cases" [83 US 36 (1873) and 112 US 94 (1884" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noreferrer">13. In the 1884 Elk v.Wilkins case12, the phrase "subject to its jurisdiction" was interpreted to exclude "children of ministers, consuls, and citizens of foreign states born within the United States."
The Court essentially stated that the status of the parents determines the citizenship of the child. To qualify children for birthright citizenship, based on the 14th Amendment, parents must owe "direct and immediate allegiance" to the U.S. and be "completely subject" to its jurisdiction. In other words, they must be United States citizens.
Congress subsequently passed a special act to grant full citizenship to American Indians, who were not citizens even through they were born within the borders of the United States.
In 1898, the Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court case10,11, 16 once again, in a ruling based strictly on the 14th Amendment, concluded that the status of the parents was crucial in determining the citizenship of the child.
THE SCOTUS HAS NEVER HAD TO RULE ON THE 1965 ACT THAT GOES AGAINST THE 14th!
EVER...
You may read more here
The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads in part:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside."
The United States did not limit immigration in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Thus there were, by definition, no illegal immigrants and the issue of citizenship for children of those here in violation of the law was nonexistent. The 14th was added de to freed slaves not being treated as citizens.
In 1866, Senator Jacob Howard(the man behind the 14th) clearly spelled out the intent of the 14th Amendment by stating:
quote:
"Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
This WILL NOT... See that?
The SCOTUS:
Supreme Court decisions
The correct interpretation of the 14th Amendment is that an illegal alien mother is subject to the jurisdiction of her native country, as is her baby.
Over a century ago, the Supreme Court appropriately confirmed this restricted interpretation of citizenship in the so-called "Slaughter-House cases" [83 US 36 (1873) and 112 US 94 (1884" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noreferrer">13. In the 1884 Elk v.Wilkins case12, the phrase "subject to its jurisdiction" was interpreted to exclude "children of ministers, consuls, and citizens of foreign states born within the United States."
The Court essentially stated that the status of the parents determines the citizenship of the child. To qualify children for birthright citizenship, based on the 14th Amendment, parents must owe "direct and immediate allegiance" to the U.S. and be "completely subject" to its jurisdiction. In other words, they must be United States citizens.
Congress subsequently passed a special act to grant full citizenship to American Indians, who were not citizens even through they were born within the borders of the United States.
In 1898, the Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court case10,11, 16 once again, in a ruling based strictly on the 14th Amendment, concluded that the status of the parents was crucial in determining the citizenship of the child.
THE SCOTUS HAS NEVER HAD TO RULE ON THE 1965 ACT THAT GOES AGAINST THE 14th!
EVER...
You may read more here
This post was edited on 10/30/18 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:31 pm to Jjdoc
its an easy win for a textualist.
too bad emotions will be all that matter.
Can you even imagine how deranged you need to be to go protest and fight because of birthright citizenship for a baby that just happens to be on US dirt when it squirts out? Its insane.
too bad emotions will be all that matter.
Can you even imagine how deranged you need to be to go protest and fight because of birthright citizenship for a baby that just happens to be on US dirt when it squirts out? Its insane.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:40 pm to Mr.Perfect
quote:
Its insane
It's a draconian solution in search of a relatively minor problem
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:41 pm to Mr.Perfect
quote:
Its insane
Aka it's liberal
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:41 pm to Mr.Perfect
I will say this.... No congress member, be it Senate or House wants the SCOTS to pick this up.
1- If the SCOTS rules Trump right, then you will see a lot of violence coming from the left! A lot of these people have no spines and will fear the violence
2- If they rule against Trump, then it's open season with anchor babies. You will see a MASSIVE influx of illegal immigration!
1- If the SCOTS rules Trump right, then you will see a lot of violence coming from the left! A lot of these people have no spines and will fear the violence
2- If they rule against Trump, then it's open season with anchor babies. You will see a MASSIVE influx of illegal immigration!
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:47 pm to Jjdoc
I hope you’re correct and that Trump and his people are prepared to state their case and defend it to a good conclusion for all of us. Because things are outta hand right now.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:47 pm to KiwiHead
quote:
It's a draconian solution in search of a relatively minor problem
I wouldn’t call 2.4 billion for 297,000 illegal alien births in 2014 minor in any way. That pays for the wall in 10 years.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:52 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Interesting.
It is. Even the American Indian was not considered a citizen of the USA. Yet we are to accept that anybody who can get here and have a baby is a citizen...
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:53 pm to Jjdoc
So, in other words, the law is settled in this area and there isn't any need to change it. The Supreme Court has already decided.
So anything Trump does by Executive Order to change the law goes against the Constitution and the well settled interpretation by the Supreme Court?
Seems like that is the case here, based upon the OP.
Or is Jjdoc not accurately representing something (again)?
So anything Trump does by Executive Order to change the law goes against the Constitution and the well settled interpretation by the Supreme Court?
Seems like that is the case here, based upon the OP.
Or is Jjdoc not accurately representing something (again)?
This post was edited on 10/30/18 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:57 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
The United States did not limit immigration in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Thus there were, by definition, no illegal immigrants and the issue of citizenship for children of those here in violation of the law was nonexistent. The 14th was added de to freed slaves not being treated as citizens.
I said it in another thread, but all of the criticisms being used to highlight the flaws in the 14th amendment use the same logic that liberals use to attack the 2nd amendment. Unfortunately, many of the defenses we use to protect the 2nd amendment can be used to protect the language of the 14th amendment.
I welcome the idea of a court directly addressing the 14th amendment's citizenship clause. Trump's EO may get us that challenge.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:57 pm to Jjdoc
quote:What? If anything, the Ark case is a ruling that favors anchor babies, since it specifically granted citizenship to him, and specifically noted the unique exception would be
In 1898, the Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court case10,11, 16 once again, in a ruling based strictly on the 14th Amendment, concluded that the status of the parents was crucial in determining the citizenship of the child.
quote:This is the case scholars cite as the precedent making a case against ending birthright citizenship difficult.
who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers
Either way, I don’t think it’s as clear as anyone makes it out to be. The exclusions you cited appear to be specific to foreign diplomats, which is a basis for the Ark decision, but the language is ambiguous enough that the true intent is not easily identifiable from the text anyways.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 12:59 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
2- If they rule against Trump, then it's open season with anchor babies. You will see a MASSIVE influx of illegal immigration!
Huh?
Why would ruling against Trump here change anything? It would simply be maintaining the status quo.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 1:00 pm to Mr.Perfect
quote:
its an easy win for a textualist.
The text of the 14th amendment is absurdly vague.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 1:08 pm to Jjdoc
quote:
will say this.... No congress member, be it Senate or House wants the SCOTS to pick this up.
1- If the SCOTS rules Trump right, then you will see a lot of violence coming from the left! A lot of these people have no spines and will fear the violence
2- If they rule against Trump, then it's open season with anchor babies. You will see a MASSIVE influx of illegal immigration!
Trump has calculated that he can force the issue: either Congress fixes it or he issues an EO that will be challenged and the courts will decide. he probably feels good about his chances.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 1:13 pm to Jjdoc
quote:I don’t think that’s enitirely true. Under Article I, the Constitution, under the Appropriations Clause (not taxed) and the Commerce Clause (Congress regulates Commerce with Indian tribes), those tribes became quasi-independent entities, as defined in Cherokee Nation v. Georgia:
Even the American Indian was not considered a citizen of the USA
quote:But those who were “taxed” were considered eligible for citizenship as they weren’t under the jurisdiction of that “domestic dependent nation.”
They may, more correctly be denominated domestic dependent nations. They occupy a territory to which we assert a title independent of their will, which must take effect in point of possession when their right of possession ceases. Meanwhile, they are in a state of pupilage. Their relation to the United States resembles that of a ward to his guardian.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 1:18 pm to slackster
quote:Yeah. I’m not sure how anyone can interpret it as clear and obvious, as if (besides foreign diplomats) it explicitly included or excluded those born here whose parents weren’t citizens or any qualifiers at all.
what?
The text of the 14th amendment is absurdly vague.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 1:20 pm to Jjdoc
quote:What? This is exactly how it’s being interpreted right now. It would end the debate, but in reality, it would only reaffirm the current way of doing things.
If they rule against Trump, then it's open season with anchor babies. You will see a MASSIVE influx of illegal immigration!
Posted on 10/30/18 at 1:27 pm to KiwiHead
quote:
minor problem
This is the quintessential problem undermining immigration law. Fix it - you fix illegal immigration.
I think an EO telling administrative agencies how to enforce deportation and immigration law in cases where a baby is born in the US to an illegal alien, is a perfectly valid exercise of Executive Authority - especially in the absence of any clarifying legislation from Congress who has enacted laws requiring the deportation of people who are not present legally.
The only thing that confuses me from a constitutional standpoint, is whether it can be applied retroactively to deport people who were born in the US illegally BEFORE the effective date of the executive order.
Trump needs to issue the order, and the Congress needs to enact a statute to the same effect before the USSCT has a chance to rule on it. That way, in 2025 if a Socialist manages to get elected, he can't withdraw it.
Posted on 10/30/18 at 1:32 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
If anything, the Ark case is a ruling that favors anchor babies, since it specifically granted citizenship to him, and specifically noted the unique exception would be
Did it conclude that the status of the parents was crucial in determining the citizenship of the child? Yes or no...
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