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Message

Consider the Gun Violence Restraining Order (GVRO)
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:46 pm
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:46 pm
Thoughts?
National Review
National Review
quote:
What if, however, there was an evidence-based process for temporarily denying a troubled person access to guns? What if this process empowered family members and others close to a potential shooter, allowing them to “do something” after they “see something” and “say something”? I’ve written that the best line of defense against mass shootings is an empowered, vigilant citizenry. There is a method that has the potential to empower citizens even more, when it’s carefully and properly implemented.
quote:
While there are various versions of these laws working their way through the states (California passed a GVRO statute in 2014, and it went into effect in 2016), broadly speaking they permit a spouse, parent, sibling, or person living with a troubled individual to petition a court for an order enabling law enforcement to temporarily take that individual’s guns right away. A well-crafted GVRO should contain the following elements (“petitioners” are those who seek the order, “the respondent” is its subject):
1. It should limit those who have standing to seek the order to a narrowly defined class of people (close relatives, those living with the respondent);
2. It should require petitioners to come forward with clear, convincing, admissible evidence that the respondent is a significant danger to himself or others;
3. It should grant the respondent an opportunity to contest the claims against him;
4. In the event of an emergency, ex parte order (an order granted before the respondent can contest the claims), a full hearing should be scheduled quickly — preferably within 72 hours; and
5. The order should lapse after a defined period of time unless petitioners can come forward with clear and convincing evidence that it should remain in place.
quote:
Advocates for GVROs have been mostly clustered on the left, but there is nothing inherently leftist about the concept. After all, the GVRO is consistent with and recognizes both the inherent right of self-defense and the inherent right of due process. It is not collective punishment. It is precisely targeted.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:47 pm to When in Rome
Oppose
Too easy to be abused and deny rights
Too easy to be abused and deny rights
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:48 pm to When in Rome
the primary issue is limiting this to just gun possession
we have similar methods of stripping away economic and other rights, but it's not just for a single, particular set
we have similar methods of stripping away economic and other rights, but it's not just for a single, particular set
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:48 pm to When in Rome
As long as there is due process and the burden is not on the gun owner.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:50 pm to schexyoung
quote:
the burden is not on the gun owner.
He would have to defend himself against the charge? Seems like a burden
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:52 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the primary issue is limiting this to just gun possession
we have similar methods of stripping away economic and other rights, but it's not just for a single, particular set
There is no removing the slippery slope argument, but how else do we be pro-active with cases like this where there are known threats. I would have been [perfectly OK with a school being able to file an order like this after having 39 incidents with the kid (including threats).
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:53 pm to When in Rome
Not bad. While mass shootings are tragic, there are about 1,00 domestic violence murders a year. If these are written to help with that it will be more effective imho.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:53 pm to weagle99
quote:
He would have to defend himself against the charge? Seems like a burden
I don't see that this has to be a "trial" just a court adjucation hearing to release the guns back after an assessment. Of course, that's where it gets real slippery.
quote:
there are about 1,00 domestic violence murders a year
In general, that's where this idea came about. Bunches of husbands and exes with restraining orders killing their wives.
This post was edited on 2/16/18 at 3:55 pm
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:55 pm to weagle99
quote:
He would have to defend himself against the charge? Seems like a burden
The statuory legal burden.
Not time
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:55 pm to When in Rome
Nope. People shouldn't have to fight to keep their rights just because someone makes some allegations against them.
From a practical perspective, if some guy is served papers to show up in court within the next 72 hours to contest his cheating wife's claim that he is mentally unstable and should be stripped of his rights, what's to stop his from going ahead and gunning down everyone he hates between now and then? Seems like if he knows he's being targeted to have his rights stripped in the near future, he should make the best of his time.
From a practical perspective, if some guy is served papers to show up in court within the next 72 hours to contest his cheating wife's claim that he is mentally unstable and should be stripped of his rights, what's to stop his from going ahead and gunning down everyone he hates between now and then? Seems like if he knows he's being targeted to have his rights stripped in the near future, he should make the best of his time.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:55 pm to When in Rome
quote:
Consider the Gun Violence Restraining Order (GVRO)
No. fricking. Way.
Total non-starter. Whoever came up with this is a moron.
Imagine the #metoo movement empowered by some trash like this.
Why are people so stupid?
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:57 pm to Tiger in NY
quote:
I don't see that this has to be a "trial" just a court adjucation hearing to release the guns back after an assessment. Of course, that's where it gets real slippery.
It would likely be structured as a civil case.
The fact that there would be an ex parte provision would be an issue for me. But I think all ex parte orders are unconstitutional so.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:57 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
People shouldn't have to fight to keep their rights just because someone makes some allegations against them.
Well said
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:57 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Nope. People shouldn't have to fight to keep their rights just because someone makes some allegations against them.
And what if those allegations are real and provable? Are you suggesting we just accept that there is no way to intervene (take guns) when a person makes themselves a known threat?
That's a pretty tough stance these days.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 3:59 pm to Tiger in NY
Should we take their knives too? Machetes? Hammers? Crossbows?
There are other ways to kill and injure. Perhaps just lock the guy up after an allegation?
There are other ways to kill and injure. Perhaps just lock the guy up after an allegation?
This post was edited on 2/16/18 at 4:00 pm
Posted on 2/16/18 at 4:02 pm to Tiger in NY
quote:Idiots on the internet make threats all the time that they have no intention on keeping. And what constitutes a "threat", anyway? If someone said "If Hillary wins I'm going out and buying an AR-15 and as much ammo as I can find", is that a threat? What if they intended to buy a gun and ammo before the price skyrocketed or before they were banned?
And what if those allegations are real and provable? Are you suggesting we just accept that there is no way to intervene (take guns) when a person makes themselves a known threat?
That's a pretty tough stance these days.
I still believe in due process and that people are innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. When you start punishing people before they've committed any crimes, we start becoming a police state.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 4:03 pm to FooManChoo
Making threats is already illegal. That's not protected speech.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 4:06 pm to KosmoCramer
quote:My point was this: what constitutes a threat? I gave an example where a statement could be misconstrued by someone as a threat and used to try to take away their rights.
Making threats is already illegal. That's not protected speech.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 4:07 pm to When in Rome
It's an interesting idea and certainly more thoughtful than most I've seen. But it would also be subject to abuse - say, a vengeful spouse who seeks to ruin hunting season? Or may someone who has it in for a security guard and who knows it would cost his enemy a good 21 days of missed work time? Even with these concerns, I think this approach bears more consideration.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 4:13 pm to starsandstripes
quote:
No. fricking. Way.
Total non-starter. Whoever came up with this is a moron.
Imagine the #metoo movement empowered by some trash like this.
You see that is why they have a hearing, to see if there is merit for the restraining order.
Instead of just putting your fingers in your ears and saying no way, no how, how about making a constructive suggestion.
For example, maybe making those who file for the GVRO have to pay attorneys fees in the event the restraining order request in not granted.
That isn't meant to suggest that one change would make the process workable, but a discussion about trying to come up with a potential workable process isn't going to hurt anything.
(I was going to say -- a discussion about trying to come up with a potential workable process isn't going to kill anyone, but I knew I would get too much grief for that.)
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